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DirectX 12
- Thread starter shankly1985
- Start date
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It's interesting to compare these two sources. One is the MSDN post that tells us basically everything we know about the technical details and the other lists Mantle API functions exposed in the Catalyst driver.
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/directx/archive/2014/03/20/directx-12.aspx
http://www.geeks3d.com/20140203/amd...ngl-extensions-and-mantle-api-functions-list/
They certainly seem to me (a C++ programmer with a moderate amount of graphics experience) to be solving the same problems in very similar ways. They even use the same terminology for things like PipelineObjects and MemoryViewDescriptors. That could just be because they are solving the same problem and the terminology is fairly obvious or course.
Either way this argument seems absurd. The idea that Microsoft went off with Nvidia and designed DirectX 12 without any input from AMD is just as ridiculous as the idea that AMD didn't know about DirectX 12 and released Mantle as an intended replacement. Mantle will be around until DirectX 12 is released and then become obsolete, and AMD almost certainly knew that when they released it.
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/directx/archive/2014/03/20/directx-12.aspx
http://www.geeks3d.com/20140203/amd...ngl-extensions-and-mantle-api-functions-list/
They certainly seem to me (a C++ programmer with a moderate amount of graphics experience) to be solving the same problems in very similar ways. They even use the same terminology for things like PipelineObjects and MemoryViewDescriptors. That could just be because they are solving the same problem and the terminology is fairly obvious or course.
Either way this argument seems absurd. The idea that Microsoft went off with Nvidia and designed DirectX 12 without any input from AMD is just as ridiculous as the idea that AMD didn't know about DirectX 12 and released Mantle as an intended replacement. Mantle will be around until DirectX 12 is released and then become obsolete, and AMD almost certainly knew that when they released it.
Caporegime
That would certainly go some way to explaining Johans cheeky wink when asked by a fellow game dev from creative assembly about this.
Don
Guys, do I have to remind you about the zero tolerance for bickering in here?
Talk about DX12 etc but please, when someone disagrees with you or posts rubbish, don't rise to it.
Talk about DX12 etc but please, when someone disagrees with you or posts rubbish, don't rise to it.
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Caporegime
Thank you.......I don't need to say anymore
I agree with your quote. but i don't necessarily think Mantle will become Obsolete.
It depends on how good DX12 actually is, what developers think of it, if they don't think its providing for them what Mantle does they will continue to endorse it.
If developers agree there is no longer any merit or need in Mantle then it will become Obsolete.
Otherwise it will stick around as an extra.
Right now Developers are still endorsing Mantle despite all the DX12 noise.
I think that MAY speak for its self.
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Caporegime
Your optimism knows no bounds Humbug 
As it stands, VRAM aside, Mantle is superior to DX11 (Forgetting of course it's limited to a tiny selection of cards), so I can see while dev's will "endorse" it.
Mantle could still be relevant, if these three things happen ; Nvidia and Intel support, Linux port, Open source (Then I can't see a reason to go DirectX12, unless it's vastly superior)
Otherwise when DirectX 12 comes, it's usage will probably be very very limited.
As it stands, VRAM aside, Mantle is superior to DX11 (Forgetting of course it's limited to a tiny selection of cards), so I can see while dev's will "endorse" it.
Mantle could still be relevant, if these three things happen ; Nvidia and Intel support, Linux port, Open source (Then I can't see a reason to go DirectX12, unless it's vastly superior)
Otherwise when DirectX 12 comes, it's usage will probably be very very limited.
I think AMD came up with Mantle because they knew DirectX 12 was a while away yet.
MS stated in a blog, that DX 12 would support existing hardware. The only killer now, will be if DX 12 is tied to a new OS.
I think Mantle definitely gave MS a kick up the backside re: getting a move on with DX 12. It could even influence MS decision to tie DX 12 to a new OS or not.
Mantle is a good thing in many ways, but I doubt AMD expect it to survive, once DX 12 becomes mainstream.
MS stated in a blog, that DX 12 would support existing hardware. The only killer now, will be if DX 12 is tied to a new OS.
I think Mantle definitely gave MS a kick up the backside re: getting a move on with DX 12. It could even influence MS decision to tie DX 12 to a new OS or not.
Mantle is a good thing in many ways, but I doubt AMD expect it to survive, once DX 12 becomes mainstream.
Caporegime
Your optimism knows no bounds Humbug
Like chalk a cheese you and I, this forum needs someone to counter balance your pessimism
Soldato
1 year ago-AMD no DX 12, in no way would AMD have released that article if there was as they would be under nda as Thracks will be.
If his twitter words don't spell out nda due to the canned response, then take on board what Johan wrote, then your probably rocking a gpu that isn't from Amd.
Ask yourself this, how does it take a company the size of MS with their resources 4 years to code a new api?
It doesn't take 4 years, the time frame until it lands should be about the same as it took Mantle to get out the door ~2 years, not 4.
What hardware was Xbone Forza developed on to run on Xbone Gcn hardware?
You can bet your bottom dollar it wasn't Nvidia.
Nvidia are leading the way with Dx12 just because they used a Titan to showcase it?
No chance, they were just bringing Nvidia in from the sides to get them involved for a change.
Serious now, Titan Black is the fastest gpu, wouldn't it give the best performance?
AMD are the big hitters in overall console/PC gaming now-its all AMD tech in the consoles with 2 out of 3 using AMD last gen.
It's funny reading tbph, OGL was the buzz, now it's not so much because of the Nvidia pr machine.
If his twitter words don't spell out nda due to the canned response, then take on board what Johan wrote, then your probably rocking a gpu that isn't from Amd.
Ask yourself this, how does it take a company the size of MS with their resources 4 years to code a new api?
It doesn't take 4 years, the time frame until it lands should be about the same as it took Mantle to get out the door ~2 years, not 4.
What hardware was Xbone Forza developed on to run on Xbone Gcn hardware?
You can bet your bottom dollar it wasn't Nvidia.
Nvidia are leading the way with Dx12 just because they used a Titan to showcase it?
No chance, they were just bringing Nvidia in from the sides to get them involved for a change.
Serious now, Titan Black is the fastest gpu, wouldn't it give the best performance?
AMD are the big hitters in overall console/PC gaming now-its all AMD tech in the consoles with 2 out of 3 using AMD last gen.
It's funny reading tbph, OGL was the buzz, now it's not so much because of the Nvidia pr machine.
Caporegime
DX12 can't be mantle repackaged (At least as we know it), or else we couldn't have Qual and Nvidia with support (And Nvidia going back to 4XX DX12 support, but yet AMD's newer than 4XX stuff, aka 6XXX doesn't support mantle, yet Nvidia's arch is different Fermi to Kepler). Bet Intel IGP's will have DX12 support too.
Soldato
I think you might be right. XP is in its final death throes going to the heavenly place in the sky in a couple of weeks. Vista is a bad taste/memory. Windows 7 is the new XP and Windows 8 has a stigma attached bit like Vista had (not that Windows 8 is bad just the perception of it)
Reminds me of the bad/good of Star Trek Movies except in this case odd numbers are better than the evens.
So Windows 9 and DX12 could be kick ass.
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Caporegime
I don't have links now but i remember reading at launch of Kepler that its not much different to Fermi, its a tweaked version of it.
Caporegime
They have massive shader differences (Look at the shader count) I'd surprised if Fermi to Kepler was closer than the 6XXX was to the 7XXX (The 6970 being a halfway to the 7970 from all accounts when 32nm got scrapped)
So Windows 9 and DX12 could be kick ass.
I'm still rooting for OpenGL, and NVIDIA just had a presentation at GDC about removing Driver overhead, and at best the got a 15 times performance increase.
http://blogs.nvidia.com/blog/2014/03/20/opengl-gdc2014/
Soldato
- Joined
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As Mantle has been said to be compatible with other hardware, how hard would it be for Nvidia to adapt there hardware to get a demo of Forza running. I would suggest not very hard. The hint's are all there to see that at the very least dx12 resembles mantle a lot and AMD have been involved with Microsoft. The main hint was the guy suggesting when reading about dx12 design that he thought it was like reading mantle's design. It matters little at the end of the day.
Soldato
Im not saying AMD havent been involed, but I was just reading today that it was Nvidia working with Microsoft on this project.
Soldato
- Joined
- 28 May 2007
- Posts
- 10,162
It's quoted everywhere that it was Amd and Nvidia working on the project. I posted an article last night with a quote from a Microsoft guy who said they had been working very closely with amd.
Caporegime
I'd wager it'd be far harder for Nvidia to create support for an API they'll have no documentation on to support 4XX-7XX than it would be for AMD to get Mantle on their 6XXX (Which they haven't)
It does matter little, but I don't think for a minute DX12 is Mantle repackaged (I've also forgot to mention Forza getting ported, they'd have been working with DX12 before Mantle ever debuted in BF4........)
EDIT : I'm not sure why people are getting so hung up on the vendors helping with DirectX, doesn't this always happen? AMD and Nvidia working with MS?