Discussion On The ATI Radeon 5*** Series Before They Have Been Released Thread

[TheGamingGeneral]

PLEASE refrain from making things up. It's getting really tiresome.

A 4850 will be $199 + VAT a 5870 will be $299 + VAT.

That's £140 for the 4850 and £210 for the 5870. Aside from Overclocker's inevitable price gouging, these are the prices they're going to be.

Until we hear otherwise any other numbers are pure fantasy, or as known as making things up.

Isnt that what you just did, make figures up

irony huh

 

[kylew]

Isnt that what you just did, make figures up

irony huh

Firstly, you don't understand the definition of 'irony' if anything you'd call me a hypocrite.

As for making up figures?

http://www.techpowerup.com/102342/Radeon_HD_5870_Aggressively_Priced_Report.html

http://www.guru3d.com/news/radeon-hd-5870-priced-aggresive/

As well as they're keeping to a pricing scheme.

$199 for XX50 $299 for XX70 and $550 for XX70X2.

They've done the same with the 3800s and the 4800s. Until we hear anything to suggest they're changing that, then keep to what we've known them to do already.

I completely see how I'm pulling figures out of the air.

 

[gurusan]

Sounds about right. I was impatient and bought a 4850 on release for 145inc. A few weeks later they dropped down to 120ish and stayed there for a looong time until a couple months ago when they began dropping rapidly.

 

[TheGamingGeneral]

Firstly, you don't understand the definition of 'irony' if anything you'd call me a hypocrite.

As for making up figures?

http://www.techpowerup.com/102342/Radeon_HD_5870_Aggressively_Priced_Report.html

As well as they're keeping to a pricing scheme.

$199 for XX50 $299 for XX70 and $550 for XX70X2.

They've done the same with the 3800s and the 4800s. Until we hear anything to suggest they're changing that, then keep to what we've known them to do already.

You could just as easily pluck out an article that quotes any other figure that takes your fancy. If your going to have a go at me for commenting on price, consistency would be great.

 

[tmaxxthomson]

exactly. talking about me making things up. and making things up isnt the same as a guess in my world. and i wasnt talking about the 4870 to 5870 i was talking about the 4850 to the 5850! read my post and it says 5850.

 

[kylew]

You could just as easily pluck out an article that quotes any other figure that takes your fancy. If your going to have a go at me for commenting on price, consistency would be great.

Hypocrisy is part of the definition of irony btw, but whos interested

If you want to be so particular that you tell me that I'm supposedly being 'verbally ironic' on purpose.

I am not, there's nothing ironic about me complaining about a person making figures up, while I'm going by HISTORY and ATi stating they're committed to making value performance cards.

You are so conveniently forgetting that ATi's cards have been priced in such a way since the 3800s came out. I keep stating this. There's no reason to think otherwise.

 

[kylew]

exactly. talking about me making things up. and making things up isnt the same as a guess in my world. and i wasnt talking about the 4870 to 5870 i was talking about the 4850 to the 5850! read my post and it says 5850.

I know what you were talking about. Point is that the 5850 and 5870 will share the same RV870 GPU.

My comments are based on history, I have said this countless times now. There are reasons for the numbers I'm quoting. The numbers that you're quoting are guesses out of thin air.

 

[tmaxxthomson]

well im perfectly intitled to my guesses out of thin air xD and by thinking what im thinking, im either gonna be right or plesantly surprised when they do release the cards and they perform better than i hoped! =p thats my theory

 

[TheGamingGeneral]

If you want to be so particular that you tell me that I'm supposedly being 'verbally ironic' on purpose.

I am not, there's nothing ironic about me complaining about a person making figures up, while I'm going by HISTORY and ATi stating they're committed to making value performance cards.

You are so conveniently forgetting that ATi's cards have been priced in such a way since the 3800s came out. I keep stating this. There's no reason to think otherwise.

Fluctuation of exchange rates, the economic down turn, initial price gouging, making up for losses moving onto a new manufacturing process for the first time since the 3800 series. Considering plenty of articles have stated availability will be limited until the October,

Aye, sod all reason to think otherwise sweetheart

Edit:

Infact I have more. In the case of the 3800 and 4800 series, I think we can all agree, ATi entered the fight as the under dog, and priced themselves accordingly. In this case, they don’t need to worry about competition, all Nvidia can do is slash prices until there new parts are out. Doubt that help much since early adopters tend not to be out for value for money. And when Nvidia do inevitably cut there prices, ATi need to have a price point they can dop.

Cutting a card from the £220 region to £199 later on, looks better, than releasing it at £199 and keeping it there, at least once the competition releases and particularly if the competition is better.

 

[tmaxxthomson]

and tbh. because there are no solid figures or benchmarks yet. im sure there isnt one of us that isnt guessing :S

 

[kylew]

Fluctuation of exchange rates, the economic down turn, initial price gouging, making up for losses moving onto a new manufacturing process for the first time since the 3800 series, and considering plenty of articles have stated availiablity will be limited until the october,

Aye, sod all reason to think otherwise sweetheart

Exchange rates? That's not going to affect the price they set them at, which there are already reports that they're continuing to stick to $199 and $299. Even then, the exchange rate now is at its best since the release of the 4890, which while being related to RV770 isn't actually an RV770 GPU.

Exchange rates affect the prices WE are able to buy them at.

Recession? Isn't that more reason to keep the prices lower?

New manufacturing process that is reportedly going well?

October availability? Places are saying mid to end of September for mass availability.

How about the fact that the 5870 is supposed to be priced competitively against the GTX285? Closest price point to that is what they've used previously, $299.

As for performance, as I have said, what sense would it make for them to be around a GTX285 in performance? It makes no sense, it's not even that I'm saying don't speculate, I'm saying at least think before you speculate.

It makes the most sense to, if you're going to assume, at least assume that this gen is going to be similar to the last gen in terms of pricing and performance jump.

 

[TheGamingGeneral]

Exchange rates affect the prices WE are able to buy them at.

Thats the point.

What price are you trying to argue about? All I, and am willing to bet the majority of the guys here are interested in is how much OC is going to debit there account for. What would be the point in debating any other price point, your not going to be paying that price so whos caring?

If demand is down due to the recession, each card has to carry the burden of recouping cost more so than they would have a year ago.

I believe, that 4770 is 40nm so theres clearly a head start, but the scale of production now, transition of the 3800 - 4800 I'd imagen was smoother than 4800 - 5800

 

[kylew]

Thats the point.

What price are you trying to argue about? All I, and am willing to bet the majority of the guys here are interested in is how much OC is going to debit there account for. What would be the point in debating any other price point, your not going to be paying that price so whos caring?

If demand is down due to the recession, each card has to carry the burden of recouping cost more so than they would have a year ago.

I believe, that 4770 is 40nm so theres clearly a head start, but the scale of production now, transition of the 3800 - 4800 I'd imagen was smoother than 4800 - 5800

The price I'm saying will be $199 and $299 PLUS VAT.

That would be about £138 and £208.

The prices for the 3800s and 4800s were also US price + VAT. Each time we've been able to buy them at whatever the exchange rate put $199 and $299 at, plus VAT.

As for the 4770, I had completely forgotten that ATi had already moved some cards over to the 40NM process. That makes it even more likely that they're going to be doing okay with the 5800s.

My point is that people need to stop pulling figures out of the air, at least I'm using figures that are familiar because they're the same as the last two releases of new gen hardware.

 

[muon]

Infact I have more. In the case of the 3800 and 4800 series, I think we can all agree, ATi entered the fight as the under dog, and priced themselves accordingly. In this case, they don’t need to worry about competition, all Nvidia can do is slash prices until there new parts are out. Doubt that help much since early adopters tend not to be out for value for money. And when Nvidia do inevitably cut there prices, ATi need to have a price point they can dop.

Cutting a card from the £220 region to £199 later on, looks better, than releasing it at £199 and keeping it there, at least once the competition releases and particularly if the competition is better.

A reliable source states that the MSRP will be $199 and $299. Just as it has been for the past 2 generations.

I was able to purchase the hd4850 on release for sub £120. At the time the exchange rate was roughly 2:1 ($:£) which meant that £100+vat was pretty much the price it was sold for.

If there is any premium beyond this, then it is simply the supplier or retailer charging the premium (this may be the initial price gouging, nothing to do with AMD). The only tax liable on graphics cards is VAT; there are no import taxes or excise charges (contrary to what some forum members like to speculate).

As for cutting it from $220 to $199, whats wrong with cutting from $199 to $179 if necessary. I do not understand your line of thought.

I'd rather believe this new source rather than the ramblings of a forum member who has nothing beyond poor conjecture as their arguments.

 

[muon]

Thats the point.


If demand is down due to the recession, each card has to carry the burden of recouping cost more so than they would have a year ago.

The worst application of economics the world has ever seen.

Should I show you a demand and supply diagram and the effect a reduction in demand has on price?

R&D costs are sunk costs and have no bearing on current pricing decisions. That money has already been spent.

 

[kylew]

A reliable source states that the MSRP will be $199 and $299. Just as it has been for the past 2 generations.

I was able to purchase the hd4850 on release for sub £120. At the time the exchange rate was roughly 2:1 ($:£) which meant that £100+vat was pretty much the price it was sold for.

If there is any premium beyond this, then it is simply the supplier or retailer charging the premium (this may be the initial price gouging, nothing to do with AMD). The only tax liable on graphics cards is VAT; there are no import taxes or excise charges (contrary to what some forum members like to speculate).

As for cutting it from $220 to $199, whats wrong with cutting from $199 to $179 if necessary. I do not understand your line of thought.

I'd rather believe this new source rather than the ramblings of a forum member who has nothing beyond poor conjecture as their arguments.

To be honest, I think he just thinks I'm wrong, and is saying anything to suggest how I am wrong.

 

[TheGamingGeneral]

A reliable source states that the MSRP will be $199 and $299. Just as it has been for the past 2 generations.

I was able to purchase the hd4850 on release for sub £120. At the time the exchange rate was roughly 2:1 ($:£) which meant that £100+vat was pretty much the price it was sold for.

If there is any premium beyond this, then it is simply the supplier or retailer charging the premium (this may be the initial price gouging, nothing to do with AMD). The only tax liable on graphics cards is VAT; there are no import taxes or excise charges (contrary to what some forum members like to speculate).

As for cutting it from $220 to $199, whats wrong with cutting from $199 to $179 if necessary. I do not understand your line of thought.

I'd rather believe this new source rather than the ramblings of a forum member who has nothing beyond poor conjecture as their arguments.

I said £220 to £199, never mentioned the dollar, as said, only concerned about how much we would be charged as consumers, apparantly, a novel idea to your good selves.

My theroy there is that if ATi release at £249 atleast to begin with, then the prices settle closer to the 220-230 mark, once Nvidia launch there parts, they can then reduce to £199. People will buy, at the higher costs, there early adopters, its what they do. Once the rest of us are coming up for our christmas treats and Nvidia launch there going from 220 - 199 rather than £199 to £179. They dont need to start way low down, they may do though, up to them I guess, but I dont see the point, who are they competing with, themself?

Hes making the case that the market is the same to what it was last time, which I dont accept for the reasons I gave. Particularly considering ATi dont have to worry about competition for what, 8 weeks? All Nvidia can do is bring down there prices, they dont have a competing part. And ATi are not launching a product where the competition has already established dominance. There first to market with dx11, they wherent for dx 10, and neither where they for the refresh last june. Totally different situation, one they havent been in for like three years.

Plus, am thinking along the lines of pre-order/launch day gouging. The 2900 trailed the 8800 on release date and was a slower product. The 3800 trailed in performance (cant remember release date) atleast to begin with compaied to the Nvidia competition (think I remember drivers closer to EOL closing that gap, too late though, damage is done).

In the case of the 4800 again, launch date after competion (hardly note worthly though), but released a better product. They needed to under cut Nvidia though to grab the sales, theres no point in being the same performance and price if your going up against an institution like Nvidia (thank you jermey clarkson) you need to crush them, in either price or performance (preferably both ).

This time, ATi isnt trailing behind, either in release, or performance. There first, and for the time being, fastest. It isnt the same situation, not even close. Am more than happy to accept prices settling down, but they are always higher on release.

I dont really get where the conspiracy theroy is coming from, you have all seen it dozens of times.

R&D costs are sunk costs and have no bearing on current pricing decisions

Am thinking more along the lines of production costs, a card, costs and it eats, into the profit margins. If there profits are hurting due to the recession, increasing price to retain that profit is somehow blasphemous? Maybe not the most socially advantageous thing to do during a recession but what are you going to do, buy a GTX 295 for £350 in defiance? Why not make the most of there head start, they clearly worked hard on it, so there perfectly justified in making the most of it, if they so choose. They may sacrafice there profits to maintain there title of the bang for buck brand, but they would still have that sticker anyway for as long as Nvidia think they can charge silly money.

What I dont get from you two, is that you think ATi will behave in the same way they did when they where underdogs, they might, but there not going to make the most of there head start that way. Unless ofcourse they think super agressive pricing will really hurt Nvidia for those few weeks and am sure people much smarter than myself will take that descision. I'd get what I could out of the early adopters, and then start fighting the competition, when they actually enter the ring.

At any rate, its a forum, I dont work for OC, I gave my opinion based on the reasons mentioned (which I honestly believe are justified). I didnt, as am being accused pull a figure out of my ass. Too easily sucked into a ****ing contest it seems.

 

[muon]

I said £220 to £199, never mentioned the dollar, as said, only concerned about how much we would be charged as consumers, apparantly, a novel idea to your good selves.

Doesn't really matter what currency we are talking about. I have picked $s because this is the currency AMD thinks in. They don't bother coming up with prices for every single market (i.e. they don't attempt to geographically price discriminate). Like its been said, the price we get charged is US price + VAT at relevant exchange rate (+or- differing retailer competition structure).

My theroy there is that if ATi release at £249 atleast to begin with, then the prices settle closer to the 220-230 mark, once Nvidia launch there parts, they can then reduce to £199. People will buy, at the higher costs, there early adopters, its what they do. Once the rest of us are coming up for our christmas treats and Nvidia launch there going from 220 - 199 rather than £199 to £179. They dont need to start way low down, they may do though, up to them I guess, but I dont see the point, who are they competing with, themself?

AMD are starting (according to reports) at $299 and $199. Hardware firms do not price discriminate like how you are suggesting. They don't change prices week on week (retailers have the ability to do that when there is weak competition, which I would say exists in the UK relative to the US).

Past experience has shown us that prices react to the price of competitors. AMD will have a release price and then lower the price when nvidia release their cards and/or cut the price of existing cards to a better price-performance level.

Hes making the case that the market is the same to what it was last time, which I dont accept for the reasons I gave. Particularly considering ATi dont have to worry about competition for what, 8 weeks?

You have no idea what the efficient pricing level in the current market is. Nor do I so I don't bother to speculate. Sources have said the price will be $299/$199 (which isn't farfetched) and hence is better than anything I could guess.

All Nvidia can do is bring down there prices, they dont have a competing part. And ATi are not launching a product where the competition has already established dominance. There first to market with dx11, they wherent for dx 10, and neither where they for the refresh last june. Totally different situation, one they havent been in for like three years.

Speculation.

Plus, am thinking along the lines of pre-order/launch day gouging.

AMD aren't going to have a special price for launch day and a different price thereafter. This is retailer price gouging (can be completely rational). Not all retailers do this.

The 2900 trailed the 8800 on release date and was a slower product. The 3800 trailed in performance (cant remember release date) atleast to begin with compaied to the Nvidia competition (think I remember drivers closer to EOL closing that gap, too late though, damage is done).

In the case of the 4800 again, launch date after competion (hardly note worthly though), but released a better product. They needed to under cut Nvidia though to grab the sales, theres no point in being the same performance and price if your going up against an institution like Nvidia (thank you jermey clarkson) you need to crush them, in either price or performance (preferably both ).

This time, ATi isnt trailing behind, either in release, or performance. There first, and for the time being, fastest. It isnt the same situation, not even close. Am more than happy to accept prices settling down, but they are always higher on release.

I dont really get where the conspiracy theroy is coming from, you have all seen it dozens of times.

More speculation. Since we have no idea of many factors, I cannot comment. I don't know how you are.

Am thinking more along the lines of production costs, a card, costs and it eats, into the profit margins. If there profits are hurting due to the recession, increasing price to retain that profit is somehow blasphemous?

Profits are down for most firms because demand is down rather than costs rising. Also recession =! rising costs.

In a recession. Prices fall. Why? Demand falls. If demand falls, the prices of resources must also fall.

Also the idea of increasing profits by increasing prices is stupid. if this works in a recession, why wouldn't you do it any other time? If I was a shareholder and found out that the company was holding back on higher profits I would be annoyed. It is pure conjecture to speculate otherwise.

So yes it is blasphemous, because markets don't work that way. Optimal pricing will always depend on factors stated below.

Maybe not the most socially advantageous thing to do during a recession but what are you going to do, buy a GTX 295 for £350 in defiance? Why not make the most of there head start, they clearly worked hard on it, so there perfectly justified in making the most of it, if they so choose. They may sacrafice there profits to maintain there title of the bang for buck brand, but they would still have that sticker anyway for as long as Nvidia think they can charge silly money.

What I dont get from you two, is that you think ATi will behave in the same way they did when they where underdogs, they might, but there not going to make the most of there head start that way. Unless ofcourse they think super agressive pricing will really hurt Nvidia for those few weeks and am sure people much smarter than myself will take that descision. I'd get what I could out of the early adopters, and then start fighting the competition, when they actually enter the ring.

At any rate, its a forum, I dont work for OC, I gave my opinion based on the reasons mentioned (which I honestly believe are justified). I didnt, as am being accused pull a figure out of my ass. Too easily sucked into a ****ing contest it seems.

Again like my previous comment. Pure speculation with flawed logic.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

If people really want to know how pricing in this oligopolistic situation (duopoly here) would work is by looking at Stackelberg Competition.

This is a game theoretic approach where you have 2+ players in a market. One player acts first and the others react. In this case it is AMD committing itself to an action (releasing hd 58xx) and nvidia reacting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stackelberg_competition

Anyone who's done any economics will know that the profit maximisation condition is where marginal costs (probably quite flat at a static point in time) are equal to marginal revenue (function of demand).

In the above link we are given a general profit equation

So we simply maximise this to get the optimal quantity level. Remember that firms ultimately control quanitity rather than price. They can do this by setting a certain level of output or indirectly by targetting a price and satiating demand at that price (if they're wrong they would have to deviate from target price).

So what affects profit here? It is marginal costs (so R&D are completely ignored) i.e. running costs, and the response of demand to prices.

This is the basic setup of a firm.

To complete the Stackelberg game we must have a second firm (firm 2) which takes the output of firm 1 as given and then reacts. This reaction, affects the profits of firm 1 and vice versa. Therefore, firm 1 acts initially in such a way it can predict (best guess) how firm 2 will react and thereby maximise its profits. The Maths behind this is just some algebraic manipluation which is in the wikipedia article.

So what affects AMD's price (or more accuartely output quantity)?

In square brackets I've out what a +ve effect of bullet point has on price (ignoring secondary effects)

- marginal costs [+ve effect on price, -ve effect on profits]
- marginal revenue [+ve effect on price and profits] <--- so the opposite effect in a recession
- nvidia's output reaction [-ve effect on price and profits]

This is all far too complicated for us to calculate or even attempt to calculate without a lot more information and probably theoretical knowledge (I dont know much more than what has been posted in the wikipedia article). Therefore, the way you dismiss the prices which have been revealed using very basic and in a lot of cases flawed logic frustrates me.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

If I was told that the price is going to be $199 and $299. I'd have nothing to criticise it with. Yes they are in a different position this time around (leader rather than follower), but there are other mitigating factors. Also the difference in decisions due to being a first mover rather than soemone reacting is smaller than you'd think.

The other factor is performance uncertainty which makes trying to predict reactions a lot more difficult (heterogeneuous products, basic economic theory often assume homogeneity of goods)). Nvidia will testify to this where their best guess as to what AMDs reaction would be, was obviously so spectacularly wrong (or this is what I percieved, perhaps it wasn't).

 

[kylew]

I said £220 to £199, never mentioned the dollar, as said, only concerned about how much we would be charged as consumers, apparantly, a novel idea to your good selves.

My theroy there is that if ATi release at £249 atleast to begin with, then the prices settle closer to the 220-230 mark, once Nvidia launch there parts, they can then reduce to £199. People will buy, at the higher costs, there early adopters, its what they do. Once the rest of us are coming up for our christmas treats and Nvidia launch there going from 220 - 199 rather than £199 to £179. They dont need to start way low down, they may do though, up to them I guess, but I dont see the point, who are they competing with, themself?

Hes making the case that the market is the same to what it was last time, which I dont accept for the reasons I gave. Particularly considering ATi dont have to worry about competition for what, 8 weeks? All Nvidia can do is bring down there prices, they dont have a competing part. And ATi are not launching a product where the competition has already established dominance. There first to market with dx11, they wherent for dx 10, and neither where they for the refresh last june. Totally different situation, one they havent been in for like three years.

Plus, am thinking along the lines of pre-order/launch day gouging. The 2900 trailed the 8800 on release date and was a slower product. The 3800 trailed in performance (cant remember release date) atleast to begin with compaied to the Nvidia competition (think I remember drivers closer to EOL closing that gap, too late though, damage is done).

In the case of the 4800 again, launch date after competion (hardly note worthly though), but released a better product. They needed to under cut Nvidia though to grab the sales, theres no point in being the same performance and price if your going up against an institution like Nvidia (thank you jermey clarkson) you need to crush them, in either price or performance (preferably both ).

This time, ATi isnt trailing behind, either in release, or performance. There first, and for the time being, fastest. It isnt the same situation, not even close. Am more than happy to accept prices settling down, but they are always higher on release.

I dont really get where the conspiracy theroy is coming from, you have all seen it dozens of times.



Am thinking more along the lines of production costs, a card, costs and it eats, into the profit margins. If there profits are hurting due to the recession, increasing price to retain that profit is somehow blasphemous? Maybe not the most socially advantageous thing to do during a recession but what are you going to do, buy a GTX 295 for £350 in defiance? Why not make the most of there head start, they clearly worked hard on it, so there perfectly justified in making the most of it, if they so choose. They may sacrafice there profits to maintain there title of the bang for buck brand, but they would still have that sticker anyway for as long as Nvidia think they can charge silly money.

What I dont get from you two, is that you think ATi will behave in the same way they did when they where underdogs, they might, but there not going to make the most of there head start that way. Unless ofcourse they think super agressive pricing will really hurt Nvidia for those few weeks and am sure people much smarter than myself will take that descision. I'd get what I could out of the early adopters, and then start fighting the competition, when they actually enter the ring.

At any rate, its a forum, I dont work for OC, I gave my opinion based on the reasons mentioned (which I honestly believe are justified). I didnt, as am being accused pull a figure out of my ass. Too easily sucked into a ****ing contest it seems.

What? It wasn't you that I accused in the first placed. You decided to swap places with the person I actually was complaining at. It was your choice to join in and comment on what I was saying. You made it primarily about price, when the main thing I was complaining about was performance.

You accused me of pulling figures out of my ass when I said the same thing about some one else, THEN you go on to say you're using figures reference from real examples you can see at the moment? Isn't that what I was doing?

Also, even if there is no competition, you're still disregarding the point I've made multiple times. ATi know if they price lower they WILL sell more, it's not about trying to do nVidia over.

Let's talk about greed. If ATi wanted to be greedy and make as much money as possibly, they'd still sell at lower prices. They will sell bucket loads more if they sell the 5850 at £140 than if they sell it at £200.

There are many reasons for this. The average user is more likely to spend >£150 than £150+ on a graphics card. Don't forget that gens ago, the mid-end cards were at the same price point.

Think about the OEMs too, they're more likely to buy an ATi card and feature it in their gaming PCs than they are likely to buy an nVidia card and feature that.

OEMs make the largest sector up, if ATi bring their middle high-end to a load of OEMs who would have otherwise specced up a lesser card, they're going to get bucket loads of sales.

With OEMs, performance is second to price, price is the deciding factor.

If card A and B perform the same, but card B costs 60% less, realistically, who's going to get the bulk order?

Also, off topic, will you please take the time to learn the correct usage of 'there' 'they're' and 'their'. I have to re-read some of your sentences to understand what you mean.

 

[RizlaKing]

Ok guys calm down it's a forum and while we don't have to like each others views and opinions we can at least allow them to pass uncommented on if we dislike them that much. Ati is not nvidia and unless they are terminally stupid i don't think the new nvidia cards whenever they launch will have the same old nvidia pricing as that has caused them a lot of grief not to mention embarassment as a company.

Ati stated their pricing policy a good couple of years ago and so far i havn't seen anything saying they are dropping that structure which is the one Kylew is referring too. Just because they will be first out with DX11 cards doesn't mean they are suddenly going to overcharge on the cards in fact at the minute i expect competitive pricing from Ati to increase their market share which is something they have also stated is a priority for them.

What does concern me most is gouging by certain companys and i am hoping that just because they feel they can they won't as there are always companys that do and those that don't and the smart money will seek out those that don't. I would prefer to get my card from OcUK but if they are one of those gouging then i am ready to state here and now i will give my purchase to another company. If everyone states the same perhaps customer power can win through and whatever pricing is implemented by Ati will be stuck too by all companys selling them.

Either way half the fun of a new hardware release is the speculating on what the specs will be, how well will it perform, how much power does it use and of course how much will it cost us to buy them so lets not have a big row lets all just put our views on the board and time will tell who is right and who is wrong .