The russian vegan only ate fruit, not a balanced diet.
You're right about B12 though, although so many things are fortified with B12 it's not difficult to get what you need. Granted takes a bit of planning.
Distasteful vegan TV ad
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You're right about B12 though, although so many things are fortified with B12 it's not difficult to get what you need. Granted takes a bit of planning.
For me, even if high welfare meat was easily available I still couldn't justify it if I could easily and happily choose an alternative.
Soldato
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If you don't believe me, these things take all of 2 seconds to check... https://www.rspca.org.uk/adviceandwelfare/farm/pigs/keyissues
This makes up a tiny percentage of farmed animals, most are kept in factory farms, and again, they all end up in the same place.
Pig Welfare - Facts About Pigs | RSPCA - RSPCA - rspca.org.uk
Pigs are intelligent animals and have complex needs that should be met in their farm environment. Find out more about pigs and their natural behaviour.
www.rspca.org.uk
SITE:
I had written a lot more but it got lost and I aint typing it all again on a mobile phoneEssentially, however, I will say this - Their statements have some correct facts however are written in a way that is a little disingenuous and/or unbalanced and fail to look at the other side of the argument. For example:
They mention that pigs undergo tooth clipping and tail docking in pigs, but fail to state why they do this. Its poor journalism to state something is done and then not go on to explain the reasons why (tails for hygiene reasons and teeth to prevent injury via pigs biting each other).
Another example is where they they state that cows are kept indoors "for at least part of the year" and written in a manner as if this is animal abuse. They fail to mention that this happens in the UK in WINTER. Being housed in the winter and having free access to food as well as raised cubicles with straw to lay in is far better than standing outside freezing and wet.
Most importantly - A lot of the reference links are either not working or are circa 8-10+ years old (1 is even 20 years old). The main site is "copyright 2020", they could at least keep them upto date especially when they explicitly state "Through Land of Hope and Glory we aim to show the truth behind UK land animal farming by featuring the most up to date investigations". So the doesn't help their argument... Unless their most upto dat investigations are really this old... This doesnt help their cause.
Given that legislation and practices may have changed in the intervening period, they could now be contrary to their claims. Also, due to this, people are unable to view the sources of some of their claims and so they cannot be either properly peer reviewed nor challenged as wrong/accepted as correct
VIDEO:
Not sure what you are looking for here - Its video snapshots of people not following correct protocols and ranging from 5-12 years old pulled together to try and shock the viewer. Its certainly not there to "educate" the viewer however you want to argue it.
Are there unscrupulous farming/slaughter operations out there? Of course there is and I have never denied it. The difference is I can accept there are bad operations however you refuse to accept that ANY animal farming operation can be a good one as your opinion is they are ALL exploiting animals.
NOW - the bit you've been waiting on, nay, salivating over... Having read the site and the video you have posted, will I change my view? Nope... I am still fine with eating meat and will continue to do so. My opinion has not changed but thanks for playing
Where do the animals from any farm end up? Of course its all exploitation regardless of the method, and like i've said on more than one occasion, yes there are some organic farms with pigs living outside without mutilations, but the end result is the same isn't it.
Not following correct protocols? No its still standard procedure to cut off their tails, clip their teeth and castrate them. I'm well aware of why they do this, I even mentioned it in a previous post, because of the horrendous conditions they keep them in, it isn't for their own good, its to keep the "product" alive long enough to make it to a slaughterhouse.
Did I expect you to go vegan after watching it? lol, of course not, I thought you might learn something, apparently not, you'd rather find excuses for animal abuse instead, how strange, but we all know if that were dogs in there you and everyone elses attitude in this thread would be rather different. Its basically a text book example of speciesism.
The Mutilations (Permitted Procedures) (England) Regulations 2007
Section 5 (1) and (2) of the Animal Welfare Act 2006 (c.45) makes it an offence to carry out, or to cause or, in specified circumstances, permit another person to carry out, a prohibited procedure on a protected animal. A prohibited procedure is one which involves interference with the sensitive...
Pig Welfare - Facts About Pigs | RSPCA - RSPCA - rspca.org.uk
Pigs are intelligent animals and have complex needs that should be met in their farm environment. Find out more about pigs and their natural behaviour.
www.rspca.org.uk
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Soldato
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Where are these animals being reared, the wrong post-code in Croydon?
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They’re going to be killed anyway, around 90 billion per year. Better to end it now than perpetuate it for thousands of years and kill trillions.
And that's fine... You do you and I'll do me. At least you can accept it without getting pissy when people don't necessarily wish to follow your lifestyle or agree (for want of a better word) with it... I mean, these following points for example:
Yes. On a plate and in a belly. I'm not sure why you think I am disagreeing with you. Of course, this is generally via an abattoir and butcher.
So they are or aren't following standard and correct protocols? Because you're just contradicting yourself here.
Just because you don't agree with the above actions (tails, teeth etc) doesn't mean these are not the standard and correct protocols of animal husbandry for each respective animal.
If you can't grasp that then this discussion is going to be problematic
Yes and no.
Yes - it's to stop the animals hurting themselves and each other which means the end product will be worth more. I've never said otherwise
No - because it's also for animal welfare reasons. For example - the tails are docked on sheep because, if they don't dock them then the faeces can NATURALLY stick to the wool on the tail. This builds up and bluebottles/flies lay their eggs which hatch into maggots and start to eat the sheep alive...
What would you prefer? - a "mutilation" of a docked tail or a sheep being slowly eaten alive by maggots?
See how I can see the bigger picture? Can you?
Is that a fact... So I'm not allowed to genuinely challenge the writings on that Hope and Glory site because, to do so, means I am excusing animal abuse.
Instead of trying to wave my points away with some emotional outburst, why don't you offer a rebuttal...
Is what I said here wrong?... How strange indeed.
Is it wrong to suggest that statements on a page, who's references it uses and which are no longer available or are so old, that SOME of them MAY be out of date due to legislation changes or changes in practice?
Or can we only comment on points if they match your POV or that you deem are ok to be challenged and nothing else?
but we all know if that were dogs in there you and everyone elses attitude in this thread would be rather different. Its basically a text book example of speciesism.
The Mutilations (Permitted Procedures) (England) Regulations 2007
Section 5 (1) and (2) of the Animal Welfare Act 2006 (c.45) makes it an offence to carry out, or to cause or, in specified circumstances, permit another person to carry out, a prohibited procedure on a protected animal. A prohibited procedure is one which involves interference with the sensitive...www.legislation.gov.uk
Pig Welfare - Facts About Pigs | RSPCA - RSPCA - rspca.org.uk
Pigs are intelligent animals and have complex needs that should be met in their farm environment. Find out more about pigs and their natural behaviour.
Well, again, you bring up a poor analogy much like your deaths on road example.
Its ILLEGAL to dock the tails of dogs (save for specific welfare reasons like some working dogs) but, as per the very link you posted, it's allowed in farm animals. Not sure where you were going with that one.
If you mean - if dogs were farmed, killed and used for human consumption then, no, I wouldn't have an issue with it if that's what we do in the UK but we don't. I may or may not have eaten it. Never tried it... Nice for you to assume for me though.
Speciesism? Gimme a break.
Soldato
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Not sure what you mean by that?
Soldato
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These sort of utter nonsense posts just show the lack of thought that goes into posting crap about vegans/vegetarianism.
Soldato
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Yeah they spend quite a bit outside. I think pigs like their little barns though, AFAIK they choose to go and lie in them.I drive past plenty of pig farms in Suffolk. Massive fields full of them. They are not stuck inside and wouldn't exist at all if they were not bred for eating.
That's not the problem, the problem is that we don't care. We can dress it up or play it down however much we want, the simple fact is that we're well aware of what's happening, we just turn a blind eye and enjoy the produce. @413x Wrote a fantastic post earlier in the thread.
Your whole "ehrmahgehrd meat bad gas chambers waaaaaa" movement can be drawn in a perfect parallel to Greta's environmental stuff, the difference is that she's achieved more in her few years than you lot have in decades.
You can deny it all you want, but your non stop pity party whining is achieving nothing. In fact I'd say it's having adverse effects for your cause.
If you really wanted to make a change then you'd be reasonable about it and attempt to convince people in a more mature way, but instead you're just attacking anyone who eats meat and you bleat like a goat stuck in barbed wire.
You would do well to take a step back, look at the whole situation, your means of raising awareness and the response it's getting and then try again.
As it stands now, you're not doing your cause any favours.
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I’m not meaning this to be a trap or anything, but I’m just wondering. If you believed it was wrong for animals to be killed, how would you try to make a change, and how to approach things when discussing with someone who thought it was ok?
I loved steak when I was young, and sausages, and I remember once at one of my Aunts house a friend of hers mentioned they didn’t eat meat and I thought they were crazy. I really don’t know if anything I’d have said or showed myself would have made a difference back then, it was a long path and a very different person now than I was then, and even very different now than I was as a vegetarian for twenty years.
My dog and loss when she died made me reevaluate life, both hers and my own, and all life around me.
Earlier in the thread it was mentioned different moral realities. I often liken many differences to viewing a cylinder from different angles. Side on one person would say the shape is a rectangle, front on another person a circle. They are both correct given their reality and view of the world they see it from.
I loved steak when I was young, and sausages, and I remember once at one of my Aunts house a friend of hers mentioned they didn’t eat meat and I thought they were crazy. I really don’t know if anything I’d have said or showed myself would have made a difference back then, it was a long path and a very different person now than I was then, and even very different now than I was as a vegetarian for twenty years.
My dog and loss when she died made me reevaluate life, both hers and my own, and all life around me.
Earlier in the thread it was mentioned different moral realities. I often liken many differences to viewing a cylinder from different angles. Side on one person would say the shape is a rectangle, front on another person a circle. They are both correct given their reality and view of the world they see it from.
I think some people are conveniently forgetting the thread was started by a whining meat eater
733 posts later, I think we're allowed to
Soldato
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You dont care?!? omg what a revelation, I couldnt tell, yea I don't care to be lectured by someone who makes light of suffocating animals.
My daughter, her partner and my granddaughter are vegan so I do know about that aspect. The fact is if you stop eating meat wholesale the animals would not be able to be cared for so would be culled unless the farmers were reimbursed for loss of earnings. So however you look at it the animals will suffer.
My wife isn't vegan, my children aren't vegan none of my friends are, I don't get 'pissy' with anyone for choosing to eat meat, I wouldn't have a very good time if I did.
I've made peace with the fact that my opinion is not shared by the majority of people. I've done my research, which was not done lightly considering how much I bloody love meat, and made my choice and am more than content with it.
I don't try and persuade anyone to follow the same lifestyle, all I would say is to do your own research and make you own conclusions. Some might choose to change, some might not. If it's the former then great, if not then that's also fine, at least you've spent the time to look into it, which many people simply won't do.
Someone who has clearly thought his choice through
Soldato
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hah yea sure people like you will say anything to try to remain consistent in an disagreement, farming humans must be ok then going by your logic.
lol you really don't get it do you, I've been talking about whats moral, not whats legal.
I bet you think circumcision is moral then? After all, its totally legal.
Yes speciesism, the act of treating animals differently based on their species.
Oh btw, how are lambs and sheep in sanctuaries surviving without having their tails docked? Perhaps if you look after your animals instead of treating them like products then things like flystrike wont be a problem.
Generally on outreach we ask various questions, because most people do care about animal abuse unlike some clowns in here, but if its clear someone doesn't care, we just say "thanks seeya later", no point wasting half an hour talking to someone who doesn't give a crap.
But it is tough regardless of who you're talking to, all my family still eat animals, were all brought up to eat animals, its completely acceptable to do so by societal standards.
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