Distasteful vegan TV ad

[adam cool dude]

Oh by the way I remembered this when everyone was posting about Vegan people who are just loopy.

 

[Crizzy]

Tbh I don't know how most people have time to even think about this, as horrible as that sounds.

For me it was lockdown. If it wasn't for COVID there's very little chance I'd have ever given it much attention.

Nowadays it plays a small part in my life, I have 3 kids to take care of, I work full time, volunteer for a local charity and recently moved into a new house which needs fully redecorating! My free time is at a premium and is spent trying to do things I genuinely enjoy, like being part of a local band!

 

[Richie]

My wife isn't vegan, my children aren't vegan none of my friends are, I don't get 'pissy' with anyone for choosing to eat meat, I wouldn't have a very good time if I did.

I've made peace with the fact that my opinion is not shared by the majority of people. I've done my research, which was not done lightly considering how much I bloody love meat, and made my choice and am more than content with it.

I don't try and persuade anyone to follow the same lifestyle, all I would say is to do your own research and make you own conclusions. Some might choose to change, some might not. If it's the former then great, if not then that's also fine, at least you've spent the time to look into it, which many people simply won't do.

And that's how it should be. A personal choice that should be respected as just that, unlike some zealots who MUST be seen to be correct and any conflicting arguments are all wrong e.g. this guy:

hah yea sure people like you will say anything to try to remain consistent in an disagreement, farming humans must be ok then going by your logic.

lol you really don't get it do you, I've been talking about whats moral, not whats legal.

I bet you think circumcision is moral then? After all, its totally legal.

Now you're just ranting like some looney... Farming humans.... Crackpot statement completely destroying any small shreds of credibility you may have had left.

Yes speciesism, the act of treating animals differently based on their species.

Yes I know what it means and my retort at your silly and naive attempts to bring domestic pets into it shows I don't do what you accused me off... Hence the "give me a break" response.

But then, I'll "say anything just to remain consistent in my response" apparently... Another crackpot statement.

Oh btw, how are lambs and sheep in sanctuaries surviving without having their tails docked? Perhaps if you look after your animals instead of treating them like products then things like flystrike wont be a problem.

What size of flock are in these places and what acreage of land does this sanctuary flock roam over?

Is it feasible for a shepherd to regularly locate, catch, check and possibly treat 500+ sheep every few days over a thousand acres of Scottish hill farms for a tail matted with faeces?

THIS is why I asked about your practical farm experience. The realities of farming can't always be read from a book and your inexperience shines through.

But it is tough regardless of who you're talking to, all my family still eat animals, were all brought up to eat animals,

Do you bring it up at every family meal if they order meat or leave them alone/been told to leave it alone by them?

its completely acceptable to do so by societal standards.

Try and remember this.

 

[tonys]

I did answer it earlier:

“They’re going to be killed anyway, around 90 billion per year. Better to end it now than perpetuate it for thousands of years and kill trillions.“

It would be far less suffering and death to just stop.

But it wouldn't be, as you would have at least a generation to look after if there was an instant ban on meat. If there was a ban it would have to be over a period of time to allow for adjustment. I'm not a vegan or vegetarian but I consume less meat than I used to but not because of wanting to, just that my appetite has diminished with age.

 

[Parsley]

Tbh I don't know how most people have time to even think about this, as horrible as that sounds.

Some are fortunate enough to be in a position to have the time and resources to worry about things that others don't.

 

[Crizzy]

But it wouldn't be, as you would have at least a generation to look after if there was an instant ban on meat. If there was a ban it would have to be over a period of time to allow for adjustment. I'm not a vegan or vegetarian but I consume less meat than I used to but not because of wanting to, just that my appetite has diminished with age.

A sudden ban on meat products is never going to happen so it's not a situation that really requires a solution. If veganism did continue to gain popularity then demand for animal products would slowly drop over time, reducing the amount of animals that need to be breed to meet that demand.

 

[tonys]

A sudden ban on meat products is never going to happen so it's not a situation that really requires a solution. If veganism did continue to gain popularity then demand for animal products would slowly drop over time, reducing the amount of animals that need to be breed to meet that demand.

Yes, I know that but a lot of these activist vegans what it immediately, hence the example

 

[Tony Edwards]

Yes, I know that but a lot of these activist vegans what it immediately, hence the example

Im mean really?

Thats really your argument? If people become vegans the hard vegans will take over! lol.

 

[Lopéz]

You dont care?!? omg what a revelation, I couldnt tell, yea I don't care to be lectured by someone who makes light of suffocating animals.

Try to remember that you were joking earlier about enjoying kicking dogs.... You are a really careless debater - I think your emotion gets the better of you and it leads to careless statements like this. Perhaps if you presented reasoned arguments instead of relying on hyperbole, insults and snippy comments then you would enjoy a better quality of debate.

I'm not convinced that's what you're looking for though.

 

[tonys]

Im mean really?

Thats really your argument? If people become vegans the hard vegans will take over! lol.

No, that is not what I said. I said that the hard vegans want it immediately not that they will take over. Try to actually read a post

 

[Johno please?]

Try to remember that you were joking earlier about enjoying kicking dogs.... You are a really careless debater - I think your emotion gets the better of you and it leads to careless statements like this. Perhaps if you presented reasoned arguments instead of relying on hyperbole, insults and snippy comments then you would enjoy a better quality of debate.

I'm not convinced that's what you're looking for though.

If you look at that conversation it was a simple analogy because someone claimed eating animals is fine because "i enjoy it"

There's not much reasoned debate to be had with people who excuse mutilating animals is there really.

And that's how it should be. A personal choice that should be respected as just that, unlike some zealots who MUST be seen to be correct and any conflicting arguments are all wrong e.g. this guy:



Now you're just ranting like some looney... Farming humans.... Crackpot statement completely destroying any small shreds of credibility you may have had left.



Yes I know what it means and my retort at your silly and naive attempts to bring domestic pets into it shows I don't do what you accused me off... Hence the "give me a break" response.

But then, I'll "say anything just to remain consistent in my response" apparently... Another crackpot statement.



What size of flock are in these places and what acreage of land does this sanctuary flock roam over?

Is it feasible for a shepherd to regularly locate, catch, check and possibly treat 500+ sheep every few days over a thousand acres of Scottish hill farms for a tail matted with faeces?

THIS is why I asked about your practical farm experience. The realities of farming can't always be read from a book and your inexperience shines through.



Do you bring it up at every family meal if they order meat or leave them alone/been told to leave it alone by them?

Personal choice again, jesus wept. So you respect peoples choices despite there being victims of extreme violence involved?

Why would it be wrong to farm humans? (in b4 "illegal" again)

If you don't breed animals to be killed, then you don't need to mutilate them do you.

I notice you ignored the circumcision point. Because you should know whats legal doesn't always mean moral.

Nope, my dad likes to say the same things a lot of others do "i don't each much meat", "i get my meat from the local farm" people are lying to themselves if they think they're not supporting factory farming, its impossible to avoid. Unless you never eat at restaurants, buy takeaways or buy pre cooked meat. And I don't go round for christmas meals for the same reasons they wouldn't go round to someones house if there was a dead dog or cat on the table.

I've had 2 friends watch animal ag footage, one has gone vegetarian since. But I dont waste too much time on friends and family.

 

[Malevolence]

There's not much reasoned debate to be had with people who excuse mutilating animals is there really.

The term is butchering, not mutilating. And the animals are already dead by the time they're butchered into tasty cuts of meat.

 

[andybird123]

Whatever you think about vegans there is plenty of evidence available that if done correctly a person can be healthy on a plant based diet.

the problem is when you dig in to it, the funding and even people working on this research are from religious groups who believe in veganism for religious reasons and/or companies that make billions from sugar products (Kellogs is in both of these categories)
and one of these religious groups has already been caught out paying researchers to falsify data to show that saturated fat causes heart disease instead of sugar and we now know its the opposite

I believed a whole load of this "plant based is healthy / better for the environment" nonsense, tried it, my health markers either got worse or no improvement, going through keto to carnivore all my health issues have completely resolved and I'm stacking on muscle tone

research may be conflicting at best, but personally testing something with full medical backing and support has me totally convinced on what a healthy diet for humans is

humans and human ancestors were carnivore for over 2 million years is now fact

 

[Richie]

If you look at that conversation it was a simple analogy because someone claimed eating animals is fine because "i enjoy it"

There's not much reasoned debate to be had with people who excuse mutilating animals is there really.



Personal choice again, jesus wept. So you respect peoples choices despite there being victims of extreme violence involved?

Stop being emotional. I respect people's choices concerning their diet, yes. I've said that numerous times but, as usual, you skip over things/don't bother reading properly.

If you don't breed animals to be killed, then you don't need to mutilate them do you.

I notice you ignored the circumcision point. Because you should know whats legal doesn't always mean moral.

I did address it - I called it a crackpot statement. To be clear - in a discussion about eating meat, bringing up circumcision is a crackpot statement.

Is this from the list of "rebuttals" from the Vegan Activists Handbook that has been cobbled together to be used when losing arguments?


If you want to talk morals - you seem to think everyone should have morals that align with yours. That morals are a strict list of what is right and wrong and no deviation is allowed.

Newsflash - morals are generally instilled from lived experiences and will vary, sometimes wildly, from one person to another. That doesn't mean they are necessarily wrong, it just means they are different.

If you can't accept that in the confines of this argument of dietary choice, then that's your issue. Bringing up completely obtuse points to try and bolster your own argument just shows your argument is not as strong as you think it is. Circumcision, farming humans and road deaths being a few absurd arguments used by yourself in this discussion.

I've had 2 friends watch animal ag footage, one has gone vegetarian since. But I dont waste too much time on friends and family.

Then do us all the same courtesy.

Why would it be wrong to farm humans? (in b4 "illegal" again)

Reductio ad absurdum... You can't have a proper discussion with anyone that continually does this ergo, it's no longer worthwhile....

Take that as a win if you want but we both know that would be a lie.

 

[godinman]

If the nutter in this thread could refrain from quoting me that would be great...

We've actually made the move to exclusively buy meat from a local supplier, they're free range organic farmers and also buy in local meat of the same quality for stuff they don't farm. There's also a farm nearby that sells raw milk where the calfs are also fed from the cow, with milking being carried out alongside that once a day.

It's something I've been thinking of for a while but finally bit the bullet a couple of weeks ago. It's more expensive but we're just budgeting in the meat we can afford, so we're ending up eating less, higher quality meat.

I think that is a healthier and more sustainable model than veganism/vegatarianism for me certainly.

I've also been off ultra-processed food for a couple of months (although I'm not crazy about it, if I'm at a friend's I'll eat what's going etc), and that has made a huge difference to how I feel health-wise. That's where the fake meat products really fall down, they're stuffed with ultra-processed crap, a good quality burger is 100% going to be better for you than that rubbish.

If everyone who could bought meat/dairy in this way it would cause a massive change to the whole industry, there's a really good podcast about this, the basic message being that with regenerative farming we actually do have enough land to farm ethically and sustainably if everyone was to get on board with it, also you need animal farming as part of the rotation, else land is dormant for 1/3rd of the time, meaning it doesnt pay to do it - https://open.spotify.com/episode/1lA7e4Fh2Dvi8QvUgX5l4S?si=v9FME2p7QxSKlK9Cdx5E_w

 

[moon man]

The team meat dinosaurs on here won't be changed as they lack the ability to question anything,they probably donate to save the cute furry animal charity in Africa and then tuck into their dead purchases.
They would fit perfectly into an orwellian dystopian society, blindly non questioning robots in human form without the emotional depth or intellect to grasp right and wrong.
Oxygen theives,let's just pin our hopes on future generations

 

[Crizzy]

the problem is when you dig in to it, the funding and even people working on this research are from religious groups who believe in veganism for religious reasons and/or companies that make billions from sugar products (Kellogs is in both of these categories)
and one of these religious groups has already been caught out paying researchers to falsify data to show that saturated fat causes heart disease instead of sugar and we now know its the opposite

Do you have any evidence to support that some of the biggest studies done into veganism are biased by religious opinion?

The American Dietetic Association, British Dietetic Association, WHO, American Heart Association and various university studies have all concluded that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of life.

I believed a whole load of this "plant based is healthy / better for the environment" nonsense, tried it, my health markers either got worse or no improvement, going through keto to carnivore all my health issues have completely resolved and I'm stacking on muscle tone

research may be conflicting at best, but personally testing something with full medical backing and support has me totally convinced on what a healthy diet for humans is

Whilst you may have generally had a bad experience trying it, the evidence supports that it can be healthy. I've been vegan for 3 years, I get regular health checks through Vitality at work and all my results come back without any concerns. But both my experience and your experience are anecdotal anyway and can't be used as an argument against actual scientific evidence.

Can you also explain your comments about Kellogg's as well as I am not sure what you are referring to? Kellogg's are not exactly a vegan friendly brand, very little of their products are plant based.

You also state you don't subscribe to the environmental argument, what evidence are you basing your opinion on, specifically what changed your mind?

humans and human ancestors were carnivore for over 2 million years is now fact

Well omnivore to be correct, but yes no one is disputing this. We've needed it out of necessity and lack of other options. It's been important as part of our development as a species, and we likely would never have survived if we hadn't.

But just because we've done something in the past it doesn't mean we have a necessity to continue to do so.

 

[andybird123]

Do you have any evidence to support that some of the biggest studies done into veganism are biased by religious opinion?

The American Dietetic Association, British Dietetic Association, WHO, American Heart Association and various university studies have all concluded that a well planned vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of life.



Whilst you may have generally had a bad experience trying it, the evidence supports that it can be healthy. I've been vegan for 3 years, I get regular health checks through Vitality at work and all my results come back without any concerns. But both my experience and your experience are anecdotal anyway and can't be used as an argument against actual scientific evidence.

Can you also explain your comments about Kellogg's as well as I am not sure what you are referring to? Kellogg's are not exactly a vegan friendly brand, very little of their products are plant based.

You also state you don't subscribe to the environmental argument, what evidence are you basing your opinion on, specifically what changed your mind?



Well omnivore to be correct, but yes no one is disputing this. We've needed it out of necessity and lack of other options. It's been important as part of our development as a species, and we likely would never have survived if we hadn't.

But just because we've done something in the past it doesn't mean we have a necessity to continue to do so.

Check back the last couple of pages - the leading research on vegan diets has been done by 7th day Adventists, Kellogg was a 7th adventist - they believe the Bible says you should be vegan, the whole sugar industry in the US is/was set up by them and they provide the most funding of any organisation to "health" research and have been caught out more than once paying off fraudulent/completely faked results.

No. Humans and ancestors were carnivore for over 2 million years, again check previous posts for links. Testing on bones proves this unequivocally.

 

[Crizzy]

Check back the last couple of pages - the leading research on vegan diets has been done by 7th day Adventists, Kellogg was a 7th adventist - they believe the Bible says you should be vegan, the whole sugar industry in the US is/was set up by them and they provide the most funding of any organisation to "health" research and have been caught out more than once paying off fraudulent/completely faked results.

Sorry but I don't see anything to support that the studies done by the leading health organisations I have quoted above are influenced in any way by religious thought.

I'm not even sure which religions advocate veganism, the only one I can think of that comes close is Buddhism?

No. Humans and ancestors were carnivore for over 2 million years, again check previous posts for links. Testing on bones proves this unequivocally.

Again, not sure what this is based upon, but it's still largely irrelevant as we no longer have a necessity to do so.

 

[Hagar]

France are considering banning 'meaty' words from being used in vegetarian recipes, steak, ribs etc.

Considering the famous spat on British sausages back in time, I am hardly surprised.