Poll: Does David Moyes need to go? Part 2 - New Poll **Spoilers**

MoyesIN or MoyesOUT?

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Gilly said:
It's taggarts fault their squad is rubbish though.

Anderson, cleverly, jones, young, an unused kagawa, rafael.

All rubbish for one reason or another, and in the last 5 years think of the truly world class central midfielders, wingers and defenders have moved.

No-one could've put right everything that was handed to Moyes (though he has still under performed).
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Again I would say, outside of buying someone he would be a fool to pass up in RVP, he's refrained from buying to allow the new guy to buy.

It's not that Moyes didn't inherit issues, small or large, it's that there is literally no reason he shouldn't have fixed at least one of the problems in his first season, if not a half dozen, instead he's introduced more problems than he's fixed.

Chelsea lacked a really top DM, and Mourinho went out and bought a great one. They didn't have a great striker AND the ones wanted weren't available so he bought Eto'o in as a short term option who has a load of experience and has been scoring crucial goals.

Mourinho hasn't fixed every issue with Chelsea, he didn't turn them into Bayern overnight, but he HAS made changes and those changes have improved the team. Moyes hasn't improved anything, he's made the team worse, spent a fairly hefty chunk of change on the wrong players AND has introduced problems behind the scenes, upset players, seemingly lost them as a team and made them massively worse.

I wouldn't expect any manager to come in, Mourinho, Guardiola, Moyes or Martinez and buy 11 players, change the starting 11 and win the champs league for Utd, that is absurd. What I would expect from ANY half decent manager let alone great manager, is to highlight suitable targets to improve the team even if it's a small amount, I would expect a good manager to make headway into the problems. The real issue is Utd needed more work than almost any other "top" team, needed more new players, and Moyes has done the least of anyone in terms of changing the team for the better.

Utd had frankly the largest room for improvement yet Moyes has done the worst. Chelsea would have to find someone better than Hazard to get a better left winger and improve the team further, Utd had to find someone better than Valencia/Young, midfield Chelsea would have to find someone better than Lampard, Utd had to find someone better than Cleverley or Carrick. There are a few dozen players who could improve the Chelsea team but maybe a few hundred who could improve the Utd team.

Not every player bought has to be Ronaldo to improve a team, just someone better than Carrick would be a good start and there are many options. Do you want to rely on lets say Mulumbu as a defensive midfield for Utd against bayern in the CL, no, but is he still a better player and would do a hell of a lot more for the team on the pitch than Carrick would, yes. He would be an improvement. I'm not saying Utd should have bought him, it's just an example, there are many ways to improve teams. Some are small steps, some huge, Utd have a huge amount of work needing to be done and Moyes did absolutely none of it which is a catastrophic failure in my opinion.
 
Robbo said:
Much of this is true Frank and it's not fair to put all of the blame on Moyes, but this season was his chance to show he's got something about him and can rebuild/freshen up the squad. He's done nothing to show that. It's quite the opposite really, he's shown himself to be totally inept. Poor attitude, poor tactics, poor everything. For lack of a better word he's a loser, plain and simple.

The two high points have been Januzaj playing well, and signing Mata. Neither of those, I believe, are directly down to him and his vision or personality.

As for the team, yes, it's weak in places and there has likely been a decline in ability (though you can't say for sure as any team totally robbed of confidence plays badly). The decline has been massive, winning the league by a large margin to 7th is shocking. A few months before Moyes was at the helm, we gave Real Madrid a real game of it over 2 legs, on top of cruising to the title. It doesn't all go down the pan overnight. There is fight in the squad, as well as quality and experience, but he's ruined it.
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The gk is excellent and the striker options are very good too (would be fantastic if not for RvP's fitness and ....moody...nature)

The rest of the team is VERY weak. 3 1st choice defenders all the worst side of 30 and have been obviously declining for a few years (and two young injury prone centre-halfs with little to no experience), 3 wingers who are either never fit or useless, and midfiield (and I know we both agree on the last area)

I think you are making a MASSIVE mistake by comparing a one -off two legged tie vs this situation (after all look at the CL group stage earlier this season). This is even without considering the glamour /prestige of playing RM, its FAR harder imo to build yourself up for a Wednesday night vs Hull, or a tiresome tie in Greece (without even contemplating the effect fo "been there, done that and got the tshirt" which a lot of the older members of the squad have).

Look at how much Spurs, City, Chelsea, and to a lesser extent Arsenal and Liverpool have invested over the last two years....and then look at how much Utd have and it really isnt that surprising how fast we have dropped like a stone. Even spurs have probably spent more than double what we have, Chelsea and City probably nearer treble. I bet even Arsenal have spent more, and we all hear every summer how little AW usually spends on transfers (not wages).

fez said:
When have real madrid been in 7th place in their league over the past few years or not been playing well most of the time. They might not have won much with Barcelona in their pomp but no one has accused them of being poor, playing badly the majority of the time or being easy to beat.
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Also helps drastically getting 45% of the tv rights year on year and therefore being able to attract nearly everyone they want at the click of their fingers. If Barca dont want a (spanish player particularly) RM are practically nailed on certainties. Without even contemplating how they actually manage to finance £80m transfer deals so often lol

Compare that with England and there are at least 4 or 5 top clubs competing for every player

fez said:
Everything Moyes has shown us is painting a picture of a man who is in over his head and who doesn't have the support of his player or the tactical chops to lead United.
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Or its painting a picture of players who dont give a **** about the club because they are leaving / retiring and know their massive pay days are coming to an end.

Taking Everton to the brink of CL qualification with a fraction of the budget everyone above has for the best part of a decade proves a huge amount more than 7 months in one of the biggest clubs in the world.
 
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He refrained from buying for 5 years to allow the new guy to buy?

It didn't stop him signing RvP
:confused:

His job is to have the club and playing staff as healthy as possible. He failed, and handed on a dud. As if the incoming manager didn't already have it tough!
 
So we've established that Fergie ****** up, but made up for it by being a great manager. Moyes has continued to **** up in spectacular fashion but is a barely competent manager.
 
I think that's harsh on him, but at his current club is probably fair.

He's shown plenty in the past. He's perfectly competent, just not at what should be a title challenging side with next to no actual spending limit.
 
Shamikebab said:
So we've established that Fergie ****** up, but made up for it by being a great manager. Moyes has continued to **** up in spectacular fashion but is a barely competent manager.
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Because he was given time to adapt to the job and bring in the players he wanted over several years

drunkenmaster said:
Chelsea lacked a really top DM, and Mourinho went out and bought a great one. They didn't have a great striker AND the ones wanted weren't available so he bought Eto'o in as a short term option who has a load of experience and has been scoring crucial goals.
.
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Helps when that player is an ex-player "coming home" lol

Eto'o has had a very minimal affect on the whole season, Hazard stepping up this season has helped immensely.
 
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No. If a manager has to bring in an entire new squad then he is not good enough. The players he's bought he doesn't know how to use. He is not competent at this level. He ignores the resources he has and persists with out of form or just plan poor players instead of trying alternatives.
 
Robbo said:
He'd proven he had what it takes beforehand. Moyes hasn't.
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Even with all his experience, SAF failed a couple of times in the CL (most notably just a couple of years ago) , so "having what it takes" doesnt count for squat.

I dont see there being much of a difference between getting titles with Aberdeen in the 80's and doing what Moyes did at Everton in the last decade (considering the financial differences)

Shamikebab said:
No. If a manager has to bring in an entire new squad then he is not good enough. The players he's bought he doesn't know how to use. He is not competent at this level. He ignores the resources he has and persists with out of form or just plan poor players instead of trying alternatives.
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Most of the squad is either out of form or plain poor (or too old for the EPL)

Every player gets too old for the EPL , thats not Moyes' fault. If anything that's SAF for not replacing a lot of the squad before he left
 
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FrankJH said:
Even with all his experience, SAF failed a couple of times in the CL (most notably just a couple of years ago) , so "having what it takes" doesnt count for squat.

I dont see there being much of a difference between getting titles with Aberdeen in the 80's and doing what Moyes did at Everton in the last decade (considering the financial differences)
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The CL is a notoriously difficult and random competition, Moyes isn't being judged on that. The fact we look garbage against any and all opposition is the main worry.
 
sack him before people remember ferguson for being the man that recommended moyes as opposed to his football legacy.

where's tom84 gone? i'd love to hear his thoughts on the powerhouse of guile that is cleverley.
 
FrankJH said:
Because he was given time to adapt to the job and bring in the players he wanted over several years



Helps when that player is an ex-player "coming home" lol

Eto'o has had a very minimal affect on the whole season, Hazard stepping up this season has helped immensely.
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Eto'o has had a greater effect on the season than either Torres or Ba, in that much Eto'o is an improvement and that is all that matters. The improvement from Hazard is neither here nor there, although it's been said he wasn't working hard enough in training, got a rollicking from mourinho after being dropped, worked harder than ever and his form went through the roof.

The point is that Mourinho saw a way to improve the team and that has been reflected in that Eto'o is better and has done better than the other two options. Of course he seemed to not trust Lukaku, which may or may not be justified long term. It seems that they want Falcao or Costa and neither were available yet so they got what they could in the mean time.

When Moyes couldn't get Fabregas, he got no one(I would suggest he was going for Fellaini and Fabregas for a midfield pair) to improve the squad and be a bridge till they get a better player.

First Fabregas was flat out not available so wasting ANY time on him was insane. If he spent time going after someone available and failed that is understandable but going after barca's most important midfielder over the previous two years, who has built on that by easily being the second best player in the team this year... never a chance in hell.

But aside from going for a more gettable target, he should have been looking for another central mid anyway. If you magically got Fabregas, and he got injured for 6 months, you'd be right back with Cleverley. He should both ahve been after a top notch player, and securing a cheaper/less good rotation/back up player as well, he got neither, utter failure IMHO.

If anything Fergie did the absolute best possible thing for a new manager to take over. If he'd left the team brilliant with almost no where to improve a new guy could really only go down. By leaving the squad weak AND the bank balance healthy, he left a HUGE amount of room for improvement.

If Fergie bought Mata, it meant Moyes couldn't have and the fans wouldn't be happy they got him for instance, etc for many other positions. By leaving the squad as it was he left Man Utd ripe for rebuilding in the next guys image, free of Fergie's shackles and Moyes failed absolutely to impose himself on the squad or club.
 
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What do I vote given my stance is:

Give him until the end of the season but bar any miracles, he needs to go.?
 
I voted for : Neutral supporter - Needs more time

As has been said a lot on here, i'll just go through things as i didn't read *every* post. I think it's a large culmination of things. When SAF left, in my eyes half the squad was either close to retirement (giggs, Ferdinand, Vidic i say mainly due to injuries) Players that i don't think are good enough (Welbeck, Young especially, i don't rate, cleverly&he is no where near what Scholes used to be in his hey day - and my god he was fantastic) to play for United.

I can understand people saying 'well SAF won the title with these players' but it's another year later on those creaky legs of some players, but the likes of Man city and how much they've spent, not only on transfers but wages too. SAF had a huge influence on games. When i've seen them play recently i've been astounded at some of the players lack of... well everything (Rvp has changed hugely, it's a disgrace really with how he is playing currently)

Moyes really needs to bring in 5 or more quality signings. Now if he can be up for the challenge, i don't know. It's a risk as spending so much money on players and then possibly changing manager will never go well.

The lack of respect is quite easy to see with some players, wasn't it Rafeal the other weekend, his lunges are insane and just isn't good enough while Rvp tried his best to get sent off, only to be substituted and shaking his head.

It's difficult position to be in, with SAF just leaving. I honestly think replacing the backroom staff was a mistake.

Although i know all about pain...years of it... i'm a spurs fan lol
 
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