Associate
- Joined
- 12 May 2012
- Posts
- 515
Needs more time.. Keep him genius at work.. Mata + Fellaini what more do you want
Poll: Does David Moyes need to go? Part 2 - New Poll **Spoilers**
- Thread starter Robbo
- Start date
- Status
I cant see how the 1st can really be in question - while I appreciate the 2nd is more debatable (although look through the last couple of years of threads on here and the CM positions have been weak for at least that long and defence has been on its last legs since Rio last a few yards of pace and Vidic's major knee issues 18 months ago or so)
21 points also dont take into account the fact that Chelsea , City and Spurs have significantly strengthened in the intervening time and the core of Utd's squad have gone significantly down hill
Last edited:
You can't put Everton's success this season down to Utd's failure Frank. Everton are 6 points better off now than they were this time last season and to put that into perspective, those extra 6 points would have put them 3rd at this stage last season.
And the '90% of what Moyes created' is hugely misleading too. For a start, as we're seeing with Moyes at Utd, it's not simply a case of having the same players. It's how you use and get the best out of those players. Moyes has taken over a squad that won the league and has taken them backwards. Martinez has taken over a group of players and transformed them into a side that plays far more adventurous football (something that's far harder to do on Everton's budget) and at worst they'll be no worse off than last season, but should improve on last season and could possibly sneak into the top 4.
Of Everton's key players in midfield and attack (Barkley, Barry, McCarthy, Deulofeu, Mirallas and Lukaku) only Mirallas was part of Moyes side and the way in which they defend is completely different too. This Everton side is nothing like the side Moyes left behind and Martinez deserves huge credit for the job he's done.
And the '90% of what Moyes created' is hugely misleading too. For a start, as we're seeing with Moyes at Utd, it's not simply a case of having the same players. It's how you use and get the best out of those players. Moyes has taken over a squad that won the league and has taken them backwards. Martinez has taken over a group of players and transformed them into a side that plays far more adventurous football (something that's far harder to do on Everton's budget) and at worst they'll be no worse off than last season, but should improve on last season and could possibly sneak into the top 4.
Of Everton's key players in midfield and attack (Barkley, Barry, McCarthy, Deulofeu, Mirallas and Lukaku) only Mirallas was part of Moyes side and the way in which they defend is completely different too. This Everton side is nothing like the side Moyes left behind and Martinez deserves huge credit for the job he's done.
Well you lost two of the games last year between Chelsea and City, so you've lost one extra this year and drawn one you won?
Spurs have significantly strengthened? They've got less points than this stage last year. The team hasn't regressed what is looking to be ~30 less points in the space of less than a year (in fact it was obvious come September, 4 months after Ferguson was gone). Well the team has regressed, but its down to the guy managing it.
Spurs spent ~ £100m whether that worked or not (as a whole) is irrelevant they still strengthened (and some like Erikson are very good young players)
Utd added £80m worth of players to their squad too, they've strengthened.
I suppose from a net spend point of view Utd have 'strengthened' more than anybody in the League(maybe City spent more, I've not checked). Doesn't that mean they should have extended their lead at the top?
1stly - I did actually say "or only became available over the summer" some loans which may or may not be repeatable next season . Its also fair to say a lot of loans have significantly affected Everton's ability to play well vs the squad available to Moyes last season (ie excl Martinez's purchases)
Wasnt meant to disparage what Martinez has done, but he had the base of a very good squad to start with - not one where the CM positions needed a lot of work to start with, and the defence was based around Evra/ Vidic and Rio on their last legs (from an EPL point of view) or inexperienced @ centre-halfs Smalling / Jones (who also have bad injury records).
Not strictly true as these were not the areas that needed strenthening (MF or JM are CM's or defenders)
Last edited:
Rivals have strengthened BUT the reason we've gone downhill is a mental thing as much as physical. The team looked bad just a few short months after winning the league and giving Real Madrid a game of it in the CL.
Then you have the fact that Moyes should clearly have seen these weaknesses (if they are so glaring) and gone after proper transfer targets. As everyone agrees, we don't need several £40m players to sort the squad out, one or two expensive players maybe but we should have a long list of targets who won't be hard to get and would improve the squad significantly.
We've got the same team as last season, and have added Chelsea's best player (the past 2 seasons) and a midfielder who caused us all sorts of problems whenever he played against us.
All roads lead to the manager...
Just out of interest it would be interesting to hear how the fans would have reacted had Moyes given 6-7 "big" players the axe last summer without working with them first.
It would have certainly seemed cold to start with if nothing else.
I dont disagree that part of it is mental, but its also a lot easier for a younger player to get over a mental issue than one of Evra/ Rio/ Vidic's age as the latter dont have the same get up and go as they did 5 - 10 years ago. Also combine this wth their contracts ending they just havent shown up as much as in previous years
It also appears from this post that you dont think the problems are so glaring which is surprising to say the least.
edit apart from the away leg vs Oluympiakos Utd havent looked bad in europe (and that leg was down to the effort of the players 100% imo) so Im not sure comparing anything to the RM games last season really prove anything. Its the day to day / much faster/ heavier challanging games of the ePL etc that are showing the weaknesses
Last edited:
Just because they may or may not have been available to Moyes, this Everton side is completely different to the side he left behind. There's not a chance in hell that had Moyes still been at Everton that Everton would be playing the way they're playing now. It's not in Moyes' nature.
Martinez has built a new side both in terms of style of play but also there's been major changes in personnel too.
And you can't say that Martinez was left a better starting point than Moyes. Utd won the League last season for crying out loud. Yes there were areas that needed to be addressed at Utd but it was Moyes' job to address them and he didn't. Equally, even without addressing them, there's no excuse for Utd being below Everton.
You're digging again Frank. Spurs didn't spend the money on positions that needed strengthening either. If your arguement for Spurs supposedly strengthening is simply because they spent money then Utd strengthened too.
Utd have regressed and massively. There's no two ways about it and their regression has not been because City, Chelsea and Liverpool have had far better seasons - however it has magnified Utd's drop off.
When he was appointed I thought he was a needless gamble but I can't believe just how bad Moyes has done. The job's too big for him. He doesn't have the mentality to manage a top side.
Last edited:
I think there are some glaring problems, but our strongest 11 at the start of the season could have got 3rd/4th spot quite easily, especially if we'd signed the right player or two.
I get the impression you think with a few Moyes signings, everything will be fine and dandy next year, I hope you're right, I'm certainly not confident at all. All I see from you is blind faith.
Are you happy that we've decided Moyes is bigger than the club? He's practically unsackable and is doing a terrible job. If he manages to spend £100m on entirely the wrong players, we could end up in a spot of bother.
We've not really been tested in Europe though, have we? Leverkusen were utterly awful and most teams would have beaten them if they played like that.
We're due a proper European game next, so we'll see how that goes.
Caporegime
- Joined
- 18 Oct 2002
- Posts
- 37,804
- Location
- block 16, cell 12
Our team is just too slow. No fast and high enough quality players.
Confidence is gone as no one can play a good pass so no one bothers to make any runs.
Game over dude.
Confidence is gone as no one can play a good pass so no one bothers to make any runs.
Game over dude.
and for crying out loud three of our defenders should have gone before / with SAF due to not being able to cope with the EPL.
SAF blindly ignored the same areas too (admittedly at least centre half tried to be resolved with Smalling /Jones)
Never said Everton would be PLAYING the same way - doesnt mean they wouldnt be in the same position in the table though (and given where they have finished in previous years, Everton probably would be in the same position under Moyes this season)
Of course taking three of the four defenders out of a current team due to iminent retirement shoudlnt affect the team form BOL - thats beyond daft!!
BOL - Spurs spent £100m on players they didnt need, yeah right.
And anyway 1/2 the money that Moyes spent was in Jan when the mental issues had already taken hold. Completely different to having 7 totally fresh players bought before the season began.
No its because Chelsea and City have spent far more in the last 18 months (and especially with Chelsea/ Hazard) those players have really developed this season. Hazard with the same effect last season as he has this one the league could easily have gone to them (or it would at the very least have been a lot closer)
That's the way I see it, those in charge have already risked (and lost) a season by gambling on Moyes... now it's a question of whether they play it safe by getting in an experienced and highly qualified manager, or give Moyes £100m-200m to spend and risk throwing away the next 5 years or more if he doesn't improve things, is it worth gambling the clubs position just to have the 'chosen one' as manager? the higher ups at old Trafford seem to be playing roulette with the club just to keep Moyes as manager.
Unless Martinex had come in last summer and weilded the axe to 6 or seven of the squad last summer and immediately replaced them - then I honestly think anyone coming in with that squad would be in the same position (and no dis-respect to Martinez , but I think he and Woodward would have struggled attracting big stars last summer also)
Now probably, Pep or Van Gaal or someone coming in (and therefore probably bringing one or two stars with them) and very likely Utd would be in the top 4 - but then its also probable those one or two big stars would have been enough with Moyes/ Martinez to do the same.
Caporegime
- Joined
- 18 Oct 2002
- Posts
- 37,804
- Location
- block 16, cell 12
Last season when I said we looked good in the league due tp a, RVP, b, because everyone else underperformed everyone here was lile nah blud. Utd r the best Init.
Whatever happened to that crowd?
Whatever happened to that crowd?
Not blind faith, but I respect what Moyes did with Everton for season after season with very little money. Gill with Moyes for one season and I really think we would be much higher than we are now (as a few good, even if not massive , names would have arrived to bolster the squad)
If RvP hadnt been such a liability this season then maybe the current squad could have got up there, but I dont honestly think so.
You are guessing he will go for the "wrong" players - at this point thats rather unfair. Mata should be at the core of DM 's 1st real team and there is a ? over how much Utd actually paid for MF, even if the latter does look as though it was a disaster. SAF wasnt exactly immune to buying the wrong players now was he? lol
We've not really been tested in Europe though, have we? Leverkusen were utterly awful and most teams would have beaten them if they played like that.
We're due a proper European game next, so we'll see how that goes.
Where Utd really tested three seasons ago when SAF failed to get out of the group stage? With the current squad I fully expect BM to maul Utd worse than Liverpool or City have, but I hope to be surprised.
Fair enough, I disagree as I think Martinez is one of the group of exciting young managers that are around personally (wanted him at Liverpool, thanksfully Brendan is making me eat my words). He would have had you playing the football more associated with Man U and therefore have a happier squad - thats entirely guess work though, maybe the senior members would have been just as arsey with his appointment as they have been with Moyes
I also dont think you can totally lay blame to aging backline/the 1st team squad for your position, gutting the entire backroom staff and replacing them with Evertons probably wasnt the wisest move.
Side note, just to continue the Moyes bashing though, did he really say that Man U should be aspiring to be like Man City, or are is it the usual media twist?
- Status