Poll: Does David Moyes need to go? Part 2 - New Poll **Spoilers**

[FrankJH]

Fair enough, I disagree as I think Martinez is one of the group of exciting young managers that are around personally (wanted him at Liverpool, thanksfully Brendan is making me eat my words). He would have had you playing the football more associated with Man U and therefore have a happier squad - thats entirely guess work though, maybe the senior members would have been just as arsey with his appointment as they have been with Moyes

I also dont think you can totally lay blame to aging backline/the 1st team squad for your position, gutting the entire backroom staff and replacing them with Evertons probably wasnt the wisest move.

Side note, just to continue the Moyes bashing though, did he really say that Man U should be aspiring to be like Man City, or are is it the usual media twist?

Thats the whole thing a lot of what is said is based on guesswork had something else happened, when no one can know for sure.

I hope Moyes is given time and some on here will have to eat their words (and if it doesnt work then I will happily eat mine). You have just proven that managers need time, it doesnt always click just like that.

From the reports Ive read some of the back room staff didnt want to continue , whether that was because it was Moyes or because it was not SAF has not been clearly stated (apart from Rene who obviosely wanted a promotion that was never going to be given to him)

Depending how much you read into the quote - chasing for the title after claiming one cup already, whats not to aspire to?

 

[BaZ87]

and for crying out loud three of our defenders should have gone before / with SAF due to not being able to cope with the EPL.

SAF blindly ignored the same areas too (admittedly at least centre half tried to be resolved with Smalling /Jones)

Never said Everton would be PLAYING the same way - doesnt mean they wouldnt be in the same position in the table though (and given where they have finished in previous years, Everton probably would be in the same position under Moyes this season)

Of course taking three of the four defenders out of a current team due to iminent retirement shoudlnt affect the team form BOL - thats beyond daft!!

If they should have gone then Moyes is the one responsible for not getting rid of them. And 2 of the 3 you're taking about were hardly playing every week last season under Fergie and Utd still walked the League.

And you claimed that 90% of the Everton side is what Moyes built. That's both not true and misleading. Near half the starting line-up is different from what Moyes left and the side is a completely different side to what Moyes left. Moyes brought a lot of the players there now but the key players to this Everton side (4/5 of the front 6) were brought in last summer and the way in which those players and the 5-6 left from Moyes play is completely different.

Who knows what Moyes may have achieved this season had he stayed at Everton. I personally don't think Everton would have improved on where he got them - he took them as far as he could playing they way he did.

BOL - Spurs spent £100m on players they didnt need, yeah right.

And anyway 1/2 the money that Moyes spent was in Jan when the mental issues had already taken hold. Completely different to having 7 totally fresh players bought before the season began.

BOL - Utd spent £80m on players they didn't need, yeah right.

Spurs spent big but they didn't spend it well. They needed to improve their fullbacks and creative midfield/wing positions (they were the priorities anyway). They didn't bring in players to do that though.

Your spending = strengthening argument is nonsense. You only strengthen if you spend well, something Spurs and Utd didn't do.

No its because Chelsea and City have spent far more in the last 18 months (and especially with Chelsea/ Hazard) those players have really developed this season. Hazard with the same effect last season as he has this one the league could easily have gone to them (or it would at the very least have been a lot closer)

Frank, Chelsea getting better does not equal Utd getting worse. They're 2 separate things.

The improvement of other sides has only magnified Utd's decline, not caused it.

 

[Newbie007]

Depending how much you read into the quote - chasing for the title after claiming one cup already, whats not to aspire to?

I would never ever want a manager of Liverpool Football Club to say we aspire to be everton (in the unlikely context that everton were to start winning things)

 

[dmcg]

records moyes has so far

• United are guaranteed to finish the season with their lowest ever Premier League points tally
• United's worst home league form for over a decade
• Suffered three defeats in a row for the first time since 2001 this season
• Eliminated in the FA Cup third round - something which happened just once under Ferguson
• First ever home defeat to Swansea this term
• First home defeat to Newcastle since 1972
• First home defeat to West Brom since 1978
• First league defeat to Stoke since 1984
• First time Man City & Liverpool have beaten United home & away since Premier League's inception
• First time United have conceded a first minute goal in the Premier League - with Dzeko the scorer

 

[Robbo]

Not blind faith, but I respect what Moyes did with Everton for season after season with very little money. Gill with Moyes for one season and I really think we would be much higher than we are now (as a few good, even if not massive , names would have arrived to bolster the squad)

I think he did well at Everton too, but that doesn't magically mean he can become one of the very best, in fact it's quite unlikely.

You are guessing he will go for the "wrong" players - at this point thats rather unfair. Mata should be at the core of DM 's 1st real team and there is a ? over how much Utd actually paid for MF, even if the latter does look as though it was a disaster. SAF wasnt exactly immune to buying the wrong players now was he? lol

Well, based on the evidence so far he's either signed nobody when we needed someone, paid £27m for Fellaini, and £37m for Mata, the latter of which he doesn't know how to use. It's certainly a big concern. It's pretty clear we did pay £27m for Fellaini, and that's that.

I hope Moyes is given time and some on here will have to eat their words (and if it doesnt work then I will happily eat mine). You have just proven that managers need time, it doesnt always click just like that.

I think you're just playing devils advocate to some degree here. Moyes did quite well at Everton, or not that well, if they come 4th this season. Therefore he's the man to take control of one of the biggest clubs in the world, despite everything so far showing he's completely inept?!

If we keep him, and next season he gets us back in the top 4 and everything looks good - fantastic - I'll be happy, but so far we look a real mess and much of it is down to his poor management.

You've got no real reason to stand by him after what he's done so far, and there are plenty of reasons to ask questions, yet you're determined to shift the blame. Just because in the unlikely event he comes good, you can say I told you so?

 

[mmj_uk]

Side note, just to continue the Moyes bashing though, did he really say that Man U should be aspiring to be like Man City, or are is it the usual media twist?

He said United should be aspiring to play like them, it was in reference to how they played.

 

[FrankJH]

Frank, Chelsea getting better does not equal Utd getting worse. They're 2 separate things.

The improvement of other sides has only magnified Utd's decline, not caused it.

Yes it does - they were (and depending how you look at it , still are) a direct competitor.

It gets harder and harder to stay up / near the top if your direct competitors get better - whether you do to the same degree or not.

Putting it another way, they are dropping less points this season than they were last so Utd's / City's /Liverpool 's "lee way" (or the amount of points they can drop and still stay ahead of Chelsea) also decreases. Which therefore means dropping positions aka getting worse

 

[FrankJH]

I would never ever want a manager of Liverpool Football Club to say we aspire to be everton (in the unlikely context that everton were to start winning things)

I totally get what you are saying, but when x club is at the top or looking to be at the top do you mention the 2nd place club instead because its easier for the fans to take or the club thats got games in hand that look like they could overtake for the top spot?

Everton havent been in that position for a longggggggggggg time so its not a relevant comparison anyway

 

[BaZ87]

Yes it does - they were (and depending how you look at it , still are) a direct competitor.

It gets harder and harder to stay up / near the top if your direct competitors get better - whether you do to the same degree or not.

Putting it another way, they are dropping less points this season than they were last so Utd's / City's /Liverpool 's "lee way" (or the amount of points they can drop and still stay ahead of Chelsea) also decreases. Which therefore means dropping positions aka getting worse

Utd are dropping more points because they're worse, not because Chelsea are better. Chelsea, Liverpool and City having better seasons is not the reason why you lost at home to Spurs, Everton, WBA and Newcastle. You lost those games because you're worse.

Had Utd stood still then yes, the gap at the top would have been closed because the other big sides have improved but it's far more than that. Utd are a far worse team this season than last. There is no two ways about that Frank.

 

[FrankJH]

I think he did well at Everton too, but that doesn't magically mean he can become one of the very best, in fact it's quite unlikely.

Why is Everton in the current climate competing admirably with the top 4 in these very financial based times (with some good cup runs) any different from taking Aberdeen to the title in 85/86?

I have no idea what the scottish league was like back then, but its not exactly competitive now adays , IF it was the same back then Everton getting 5th /6th every year is a harder achievement.

Well, based on the evidence so far he's either signed nobody when we needed someone, paid £27m for Fellaini, and £37m for Mata, the latter of which he doesn't know how to use. It's certainly a big concern. It's pretty clear we did pay £27m for Fellaini, and that's that.

Actually no it isnt - 1stly headline writers say anything they want whether its including 4 years worth of wages in a deal to make a bigger number, including add-ons which might not be payable for years etc etc etc even without considering that a few Everton fans earlier this season on here were saying it was only £15m upfront.

I think you're just playing devils advocate to some degree here. Moyes did quite well at Everton, or not that well, if they come 4th this season. Therefore he's the man to take control of one of the biggest clubs in the world, despite everything so far showing he's completely inept?!

If we keep him, and next season he gets us back in the top 4 and everything looks good - fantastic - I'll be happy, but so far we look a real mess and much of it is down to his poor management.

You've got no real reason to stand by him after what he's done so far, and there are plenty of reasons to ask questions, yet you're determined to shift the blame. Just because in the unlikely event he comes good, you can say I told you so?

I honestly dont care about "I told you so" , but for the longest time the club have always said "we believe in standing by our manager in the long term and disagree with majority of other clubs looking for instant success" which was said well before SAF retired many times.

I agree with this philosophy , he needs a lot more time than 1 season . I can understand some clubs cant afford the luxury but at the end of the day the one thing that Utd CAN afford is the time to give him at least until next Christmas.

IF SAF had at least done something with the midfield then fair enough, but his carp about "no value in the market" was exactly that. Carp.

If (or according to you lot "when") the club sack him and appoint someone else and they get instant success (or even top three /four initially) then I will happily eat my words

 

[FrankJH]

Utd are dropping more points because they're worse, not because Chelsea are better. Chelsea, Liverpool and City having better seasons is not the reason why you lost at home to Spurs, Everton, WBA and Newcastle. You lost those games because you're worse.

Had Utd stood still then yes, the gap at the top would have been closed because the other big sides have improved but it's far more than that. Utd are a far worse team this season than last. There is no two ways about that Frank.

As with motor-racing - with no car / squad development and you just stand still while all around you do their own stuff , the team goes backwards. Its inevitable


Looking at it another way - it would be interesting to work out what points Utd would have ended up with last season with RvP's injury record from this season (and that even without the defensive issues this season)

 

[BaZ87]

As with motor-racing - with no car / squad development and you just stand still while all around you do their own stuff , the team goes backwards. Its inevitable

Had Utd simply stood still they wouldn't be in the position they are now. Football isn't motor racing, there's not huge changes in technology each year that massively change the landscape of the competition.

You're the only person I've seen or heard suggest that aren't a worse team under Moyes than they were last season.

 

[FrankJH]

Ive NEVER said they arent a worse side. Now you are just putting words in my mouth.

Im saying Moyes isnt anywhere near as wholly responsible as a lot of people want to blame him for (which Ive said over and over in this thread and its former one)

(and its got nothing to do with technology changes - as its still aparant when the regs are effectively fixed for years)

 

[Robbo]

Why is Everton in the current climate competing admirably with the top 4 in these very financial based times (with some good cup runs) any different from taking Aberdeen to the title in 85/86?

I see a difference there.

Do you know how unlikely it is that Moyes will be SAF mk2? It's close to impossible.

Actually no it isnt - 1stly headline writers say anything they want whether its including 4 years worth of wages in a deal to make a bigger number, including add-ons which might not be payable for years etc etc etc even without considering that a few Everton fans earlier this season on here were saying it was only £15m upfront.

So "a few Everton fans" are spot on then instead?!

I honestly dont care about "I told you so" , but for the longest time the club have always said "we believe in standing by our manager in the long term and disagree with majority of other clubs looking for instant success" which was said well before SAF retired many times.

I agree with this philosophy , he needs a lot more time than 1 season . I can understand some clubs cant afford the luxury but at the end of the day the one thing that Utd CAN afford is the time to give him at least until next Christmas.

IF SAF had at least done something with the midfield then fair enough, but his carp about "no value in the market" was exactly that. Carp.

If (or according to you lot "when") the club sack him and appoint someone else and they get instant success (or even top three /four initially) then I will happily eat my words

So in short it's the old "SAF said to stand by him and I'm worried about looking like a bad fan" excuse.

He's done a terrible job so far. Why should we just sit in silence and put up with it? I'm all for giving someone time but this is just dreadful.

What good is giving him until Christmas? Who can we replace him with then? He'll have to get all of next season as well, and where is the evidence he deserves that?

"Time" is just a word. You can't just hide behind that and pretend everything will magically get better. Zero evidence so far.

Look at what Martinez is doing with Everton and make whatever comparisons you like. End of discussion really, right there.

 

[BaZ87]

No, you didn't directly say it. You claimed that Utd are x amount of points worse off because other sides are better rather than Utd are worse.

 

[Pigeon_Killer]

Since when were unsubstantiated opinions from random forum posters authoritative?

Tom once said Benitez wanted to sign Poulsen because someone wrote about it in their blog. That's all the proof that's needed in some cases

Edit: Whoops, didn't realise what thread this was. I still heavily back Moyes and would happily vote twice in his favour if I could

 

[Trusty]

He's done a terrible job so far. Why should we just sit in silence and put up with it? I'm all for giving someone time but this is just dreadful.

What if you beat Bayern?

 

[Pigeon_Killer]

What if you beat Bayern?

The only way that's happening is if Moyes manages Bayern

 

[Trusty]

Looks like everyone here thinks it's all the manager, at the end of the day, it's the players that go out there. They play at the highest level, they don't need a team talk really, need some direction, sure. But these guys have been round the block, they've won loads of PL titles, and they're not arsed about the PL. Simples really. It's a mental thing, not a manager thing.

It's hilarious how people are soon to disregard what Moyes did at Everton, even before Martinez, People were impressed with Everton for years and years, Baines and Pienner, Martinez got Wigan relegated remember, he couldn't organise a defence to save his life. It's Moyes defense there that is helping the front 4 win games. Also complete luck they got Lukaku in, you can't predict stuff like that. It's helped Everton so much this season.

At the end of the day, he needs more than a season to bring in 'his' players and have proper go at everything..he's got a bit part team with people over the hill/authority issues. Happens all the time that, Mourinho and Casillas?? When that happens, it's a poison that filters through, they need to sort that out.

Have people seen the article on the BBC about the City game, Moyes taking the blame for everything, Its very sweet, he's good lad Moyes..

 

[Robbo]

What if you beat Bayern?

I'd be in a state of complete shock but it would give me some much needed belief.

Looks like everyone here thinks it's all the manager, at the end of the day, it's the players that go out there. They play at the highest level, they don't need a team talk really, need some direction, sure. But these guys have been round the block, they've won loads of PL titles, and they're not arsed about the PL. Simples really. It's a mental thing, not a manager thing.

It's hilarious how people are soon to disregard what Moyes did at Everton, even before Martinez, People were impressed with Everton for years and years, Baines and Pienner, Martinez got Wigan relegated remember, he couldn't organise a defence to save his life. It's Moyes defense there that is helping the front 4 win games. Also complete luck they got Lukaku in, you can't predict stuff like that. It's helped Everton so much this season.

Who's job is it to motivate the players and get them playing? The manager. While I agree they should always perform, it's up to the manager to get them playing, and the buck stops there.