E-Scooter discussion after fatal collision

[jpaul]

I think most normal-humans are less than 250W over a distance

google seems to corroborate - https://www.cyclist.co.uk/news/319/team-sky-release-chris-froome-s-power-data

Tim Kerrison, Team Sky’s head of athlete performance, told a sea of waiting journalists that on the final climb of Stage 10, where Froome left Nairo Quintana standing, Froome’s average power was 414w for 41 minutes 30 seconds. Great. What does that mean? That Chris Froome can do for 40 minutes what I can do for five? So I should expect – he’s a professional cyclist.
....
Most pro cyclists produce about 200 to 300 watts on average during a four-hour tour stage. The recreational rider, on the other hand, might be only able to sustain this wattage during a 45-minute or hour-long spin class.

 

[MadMossy]

My average power is around 200w on a typical long ride, peak power is 1200w for a 10-20s sprint.

On my emtb, unless climbing I'm almost always outside of the assistance range. The 250w motor on certainly makes a difference by flattening out the hills, but I'm still substantially faster on a road bike for the same ride. I just won't be knackered when I'm finished

 

[b0rn2sk8]

That’s true but where the hard 250w limits has issues is inclines.

You don’t need anything close to the 250w to do 15mph on flat ground but on a hill you’ll be putting out way more for the short period to get over it.

A 250w scooter will be down to walking pace which is frustrating to a rider.

 

[MadMossy]

A 250w motor that produces sufficient torque at a low enough rpm will be more than enough to carry a rider up a decent incline at a reasonable pace.

On my emtb I can go up a hill in eco mode with ease at a reasonable speed of 8mph, stick it in turbo and you'll easily hit 15mph with a bit of effort.

Obviously that's a pedal assisted bike. Regardless of what the regulations say, if its not enforced people will just ignore them anyway (they already do so what does it matter)

 

[UTmaniac]

The big question that jumps out to me initially is are police really going to stop every e-scooter user and ensure they are riding a legal rental one from today on the roads?

Or is this going to be another theoretical law that will only have consequences if you are involved in an rta and you don't leave the scene, with or without your owned e-scooter?

 

[b0rn2sk8]

Or is this going to be another theoretical law that will only have consequences if you are involved in an rta and you don't leave the scene, with or without your owned e-scooter?

This, as it’s the case already. Outside of a few days of targeted enforcement following the incident that started this thread it’s generally ignored unless someone has done something really silly.

To be honest, I think this is the right thing to do either way, legal or not. I’d much rather the police were tackling ‘real crime’ than chasing down a few scooter riders. They are already underfunded and short on numbers as it is.

 

[SexyGreyFox]

OK - in the general case, utilization of a motor , thereby exceeding typical human power,

I know you said general but I'd also like to point out that for the last 6 years I've had my eBikes my commute of 4.5 miles is done way quicker than 15.5mph.
On most of my commute the motor has cut out while I'm actually doing the work.
I obviously realise the bike has helped me to reach 15.5mph but I then take over with pedal power and I've never had a problem getting past slower cyclists.
I also get home from work where I have to hit the floor because I've put so much effort in on a bike that weighs around 23kg.
My best Strava KOHs are still on a road bike and I've never got in and had to lie down on the floor.
My overall problem is that my joints are in a bad way, I've just missed a full knee replacement so on an eBike I know I will still be able to get home where I wouldn't on my road bike.
I know there are a lot of eBike users who use their bikes like an exercise bike.

 

[Moomalade]

This, as it’s the case already. Outside of a few days of targeted enforcement following the incident that started this thread it’s generally ignored unless someone has done something really silly.

To be honest, I think this is the right thing to do either way, legal or not. I’d much rather the police were tackling ‘real crime’ than chasing down a few scooter riders. They are already underfunded and short on numbers as it is.

Yep, can confirm as recently as yesterday I buzzed past a cop car on a Lewisham suburban street where they could easily have flagged me down. Didn't even look in my direction as I side-eyed my way past them.

 

[Junglist]

Yep, you have to be acting like a right prat to have anything said to you. When I was riding my EUC to work literally every day I'd go past police at the station, never had a word mentioned to me

 

[DanTheMan]

Everytime I go to Germany or France and see the utilisation of e scooters there, I always think what a brilliant idea they would be in the UK. Then I get back here and realise how badly our infrastructure / road network is for anything other than cars and pedestrians and I quickly change my mind.

I've seen a huge increase in e scooters in Manchester recently and I can only think that they are dangerous. The riders are either on the roads, frantically dodging grids and potholes or are using the pavement and weaving in and out of people. I'd love to be able to commute on one but there would need to be a massive increase in good quality cycle lanes for it to work.

 

[jpaul]

[

that's what witnesses said ... linked much earlier in thread.
]

Still negligible information about the details of her accident, roundabout complexity, if you hadn't followed thread, seems a candidate, with prior death.

looking further, you can see it's an accident waiting to happen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygwJQMC2T-c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsmlMNMP4VE


Seems in public interest to publicize cause if known, (or tell us if its not) or is that down to coroner or relations ?

seems they've just installed a similar roundabout to where she/influencer was killed , on her escooter, in Cambridge ... they were celebrating construction today on evening tv

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeMinV29hxo

 

[b0rn2sk8]

While those roundabouts are similar, they are set up very differently in terms of their traffic priority. The Cambridge one gives 100% priority to pedestrians and cyclists, if there is a cyclist crossing the exit the car has to give way, every time. In the London one the cars generally have priority and the cyclists have to wait at traffic lights.

The Cambridge version is really how they should be set up to encourage people to actually use them correctly IMO. If they don't what happens is cyclists will move out of the segregated lane into the carriage way because its clearly much faster to get round the junction which isn't the idea.

 

[jpaul]

yes, the mini lights are different, but the cyclist , or escooterists(do they have a name yet?), may well pull/continue blindly across the road assuming the motorist has stopped and has seen them;
with a zebra crossing, people know (tufty ?) you don't walk blindly across and similar behaviour needs to be instilled in *ists, for these.

Now(for first time) looking at the genuine dutch version the motorist has priority, and, maybe the lights vetrsion is better in that respect, albeit uk mortality.

https://youtu.be/q664_GjTyoE?t=245

 

[Eurofighter]

I think these are the future. Finally a real reason to invest in cycle lanes. Ha

 

[ianh]

As I originally created the thread to discuss the Death of Emily Hartridge, before a subsequent change made it into a general e-scooter thread*, I thought it worthwhile updating it after the Coroners verdict on her death was released -

'Ms Hartridge was riding an electric scooter on Queenstown Road when she lost control after passing over an inspector hatch inthe cycle lane and was thrown under the path of an HGV.'

'She died instantly of injuries sustained by the HGV driving over her.'

'The scooter was being unsuitably driven, too fast and with an underinflated tyre and this caused the loss of control and her death.'

At least it was instant

*I wasn't happy (and I'm still not) about this but the forum users had decided to ignore the reason for the OP and concentrate on e-scooters instead so I reluctantly agreed to the title change.

 

[Hagar]

As I originally created the thread to discuss the Death of Emily Hartridge, before a subsequent change made it into a general e-scooter thread*, I thought it worthwhile updating it after the Coroners verdict on her death was released -



At least it was instant

*I wasn't happy (and I'm still not) about this but the forum users had decided to ignore the reason for the OP and concentrate on e-scooters instead so I reluctantly agreed to the title change.

The verdict goes some way to vindicate only allowing 'scooters for hire' at this time. Hire companies would then be responsible for the roadworthiness of the vehicle for that day.

I expect many car drivers and cyclists do not check tyre pressures daily but the consequences of running over embedded grids etc. are much less dangerous for a larger or wider tyre. Cycles do usually have a space to fit a small pump to top up pressures. As an ex motorcyclist I am aware of grids especially on corners.

Also she was apparantly contributory for driving too fast and sad though it is, my thoughts are definitely with the HGV driver who has had to deal with an appalling incident in which he was without fault.

 

[jpaul]

Can't see the full coroners statement online ?

to see if the unusually styled roundabout (with previous accidents, as discussed) was also contributory, or,
whether video from lorry driver, say, may have made cause more certain.

Automatic pressure sensing's legally required on cars no ? but having similar on bicycles.. would be useful.

BBC article didn't seem to confirm, using them is illegal too, but the BBC seem lax on that sort of thing, r4today article on scooters, where commuter was openly saying they were using them was not admonished ... I think the law is not so ambiguous.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

I get where you are coming from, they are illegal and the law isn’t ambiguous on that point but it’s a law that goes completely unenforced. Unenforced laws might as well not exist.

From what I can see from this incident is that it isn’t something new regulations will will somehow fix as the major contributing factors stated above are already covered by existing regulations (e.g. maintenance and speed). I’ve not seen the full outcome published so it’s not clear if the inspection plate also condition contributed.

Some of the hire scooters I have seen abroad have also been in poor condition so I’m not sure that is the answer either.

Roads are a really dangerous place and I don’t have any answers, did the coroner make any recommendations?

 

[Narj]

The amount of selfish idiots riding these on the pavement and expecting pedestrians to get out of the way is really starting to yank my chain.

 

[explicit4u]

Thread bump as the trial of these devices is starting in 4 London boroughs:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48106617

A few good moves to prevent them being abused:

- Speed Restricted (including GPS limiting in certain areas)
- GPS restricted parking
- Requires an online course before riding
- Need at least a provisional to ride
- Front and rear lights
- Beefier tyres


The beefier tyres especially is a good move, I ate **** on a Lime scooter in Spain a few years ago due to a small pothole. Also had a friend flip one after going over a drain, looked epic but its crazy how rubbish the old tyres are on these things.