Energy Prices (Strictly NO referrals!)

Is using prices 10p gas 33p electricity. So not far off current
surely though in time on average electricity should relatively go down and gas up. if it doesn't then we have failed dismally (by we I mean society / government) to make going green(er) even remotely attractive.
renewable energy is far cheaper than fossil fuel and at some point gas powered generation needs to have the subsidies removed (possibly kept on nuclear however as for now at least we need some form of reliable dependable generation for the backbone and energy pricing split so we actually pay different amounts depending on the source of energy (to encourage off peak use)
 
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Saw this graph.
Doesn't make a good advert for them on cost basis unfortunately.

This assumes change gas boiler after 10 years.
I also think it over estimates the initial gas boiler outlay.

Looks like takes 15 years plus to break even!

Are heat pumps immune from wear and tear and therefore don't need replaced like the gas boiler is showing?

So gas boiler replaced after 10 years but heatpump lasts 20 years+?

That graph they have made is a little disingenuous for that fact... Seems like they have an agenda.
 
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Its going to be what holds us back.
The sheer cost of getting older properties up to spec.

Soon as you need to do all the extra work the cost is prohibitive for most people.


No idea what will be done to overcome this is if I'm honest. Many people simple wouldn't be able to afford the changes of the UK (for example) just turned gas off by X date. Or banned gas boilers full stop.

Even just new pipe work and rads + boiler to heat pump is crazy expensive
Which is why I think most people will end up with air to air heat pumps (aka air conditioning) and potentially a few electric rads in seldom used rooms where it doesn’t make much financial sense to put in heat pumps. I just don’t know why more people don’t talk about that solution.

Much cheaper to install, slightly more efficient when heating, can cool, very responsive like a gas system and they can now also heat hot water cylinders on the same multi split.

The downsides are obvious, installations can be ugly and internal units have a fan (noise and you don’t want to place them somewhere where they will blow on you as they take away the thin bubble of body heated air away from you).
 
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VboIpyb.jpg

Saw this graph.
Doesn't make a good advert for them on cost basis unfortunately.

This assumes change gas boiler after 10 years.
I also think it over estimates the initial gas boiler outlay.

Looks like takes 15 years plus to break even!
Its utter gash to be honest. Gas boiler install is far below this for most people and heat pump install with all the required housing changes are far higher. I hate this disingenuous stuff, just be straight with people.
 
Does anything over recent years or decades suggest we wont fail dismally in delivering cheap clean energy for the masses? :p
good point!. My hope is this is one thing as a planet we will succeed in because we have to....... the frustrating thing is the technology exists, it COULD be done now, and had the will been there to really go for it 10-20 years ago with only minor changes to how the populace do things, i believe as a planet we could have massively reduced our fossil fuel consumption by now, only using what we have to use and treating it like the prescious resource it should be.

a combination of corruption, greed and lethargy is what has stopped it imo, and it is probably the major failing of being in a democracy (not saying we need to change that............ however in a world where every 4 - 5 years the people in power can be kicked out, it means those in power only worry about the next 4 - 5 years and tend to shirk the hard choices which people wont like..... hypothetically a benevolent world dictator in power for 20 years who really wanted to get this sorted, would get it sorted (mostly only joking)
 
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Are heat pumps immune from wear and tear and therefore don't need replaced like the gas boiler is showing?

So gas boiler replaced after 10 years but heatpump lasts 20 years+?

That graph they have made is a little disingenuous for that fact... Seems like they have an agenda.
i agree its a crap graph, but i would say its just crap rather than an agenda..... Wear and tear crossed my mind as well, most gas boilers last well beyond 10 years (i damn well hope mine does!) and presumably some ASHPs will fail as well.

but i think it is more incompetence rather than an agenda because like already mentioned.......... it also assumed energy prices will stay as they are now, which just happen to put electricity in as dim a light as possible.

I dont know enough to know if it is worth installing ASHPs into existing older properties - but most plumbers i know say it isnt.......... i do think all new builds should probably have them - or at least something which isnt gas or oil!.

that still leaves a huge problem to solve...... but at least stop making the problem even bigger. new builds have decent insulation, and from scratch the rads and pipework can be to spec, so if ever there is a case where they will work it is on all newbuilds.
 
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I suspect that the graph is for a NEW system. IE a blank install, not a replacement gas boiler vs a new install heat pump.
At which point the marginally cheaper boiler shows on the graph as such.

What is interesting to me, is that the cost of the initial gas boiler to run is lower than the heat pump each year. When the boiler is replaced (at a seemingly sensible cost, which also supports my first line), the ongoing costs of the second boiler are clearly higher.
Maybe this reflects some known thing that will happen later that will make them more expensive to run, higher regulations or something similar.

Almost certainly those lines will include annual maintenance etc (which heat pumps should have) but in reality the values on that graph are high as most of the cost of both will be running rather than install over that type of timeframe so other costs will be low and wont show up.
Plus probably more importantly they will have been averaged in, so eg the annual services, maybe some gas top up for the heatpump system around year 4, 8 etc. You wouldnt put then at exact timeframes unless they were hard coded in and could affect your when to replace decision.
You would average the maintenance costs across the term to show the relative values over time.
Which is why I think most people will end up with air to air heat pumps (aka air conditioning) and potentially a few electric rads in seldom used rooms where it doesn’t make much financial sense to put in heat pumps. I just don’t know why more people don’t talk about that solution.

Much cheaper to install, slightly more efficient when heating, can cool, very responsive like a gas system and they can now also heat hot water cylinders on the same multi split.

The downsides are obvious, installations can be ugly and internal units have a fan (noise and you don’t want to place them somewhere where they will blow on you as they take away the thin bubble of body heated air away from you).

Sort out planning and this by far a more likely end game for many.
Depending on the property either a smallish heat pump main system to do the water and some background heating via an already installed water system, plus some AC type units in high usage / high temp required areas and then many options for irregularly used rooms if they need to be up to temp.
Such as the heated wall paper idea, local elec heaters, boost the local rad via an element (isolate and heat directly like an electric towel rail) etc etc
 
Are houses built in the last few years easy enough to convert to heat pump?

Granted, bigger rads may be needed, but what about the rest of it like pipework?

Heat pumps can go to hotter water temps than a gas boilers provide. The main issue is the limiting water temps to not be dangerous.

We had this conversation a couple of months ago where the main issue was not the water temp as such but ability to heat quickly, or maintain a temp.
Hence we go round and round on the if your house is well insulated you dont need to add massive amounts of heat to maintain it, and even relatively large amounts will heat it will. But if your house is poorly insulated then a heat pump is going to struggle.
 
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Are houses built in the last few years easy enough to convert to heat pump?

Granted, bigger rads may be needed, but what about the rest of it like pipework?

Ironically, a newer house is likely to be just as expensive to retrofit. You can probably use a smaller and cheaper heat pump but it’s highly likely to have micro bore pipe work everywhere unlike an older house so significant sections may need to be re-pipes. You may get away with micro-bore if the heat pump you need is relatively small (E.g. under 6kw and that would cover most houses up to a smaller 4 bed).

Their rads are also likely to be sized correctly for a 65c flow temp (this also saves cost for the builder) so they will all need to be replaced to get a sensible level of efficiency out of it.

If the house wasn’t built with a hot water cylinder, there probably isn’t a space for one and the roof trusses will not be thick enough to take the weight of one.

Where as older properties are more likely to have grossly oversized radiators as that’s how things were done back then and since installation their insulation will likely have been improved. They also probably had a hot water tank at some point as combi boilers didn’t exist back then. There should be a decent sized airing cupboard if it hasn’t bees ripped out already.
 
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Whatever the graphs agenda it's showing at best case ASHP are nearly same as a gas boiler and would require gas to get much more expensive vs electricity to make financial sense.

To me it makes the decision to replace my boiler with another ab easy one. I thought ASHP would be much much better than that
 
We will keep our gas boiler as long as possible. It’s 3 years old and comes with a 10 year warranty. I hope by then technology will have improved to replace comfortably. We have 16 radiators in a 2700sqft Victorian terrace and the gas boiler only just keeps the house warm at 75c flow rate. We’ve insulated as much as possible within conservation restraints.

What we are thinking is solar + battery + portable fan heaters in the near future. One small fan heather in the study warms the room up in minutes and it stays that way for most of the next hour. On average working from home in there I use the fan heater for 5 minutes a hour so if I can supply that with cheap / free electricity that will cut costs down a lot.

We had a quote for a heat pump and all the associates work and it was £28k + redecoration costs and some plastering. We won’t be looking at that again anytime soon.

Our Local Authority won’t allow any exterior works to the property that aren’t in keeping with character due to conservation area but we can install solar on the rear facing roof.

So really in conclusion not a lot of good options for older properties currently.
 
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VboIpyb.jpg

Saw this graph.
Doesn't make a good advert for them on cost basis unfortunately.

This assumes change gas boiler after 10 years.
I also think it over estimates the initial gas boiler outlay.

Looks like takes 15 years plus to break even!

An ASHP for our house is over £12k with a new Gas boiler about £3k. So, even if we need replace the gas boiler after 10 years it still works out cheaper.
Even with a full solar setup, an ASHP does not currently make financial sense.
 
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An ASHP for our house is over £12k with a new Gas boiler about £3k. So, even if we need replace the gas boiler after 10 years it still works out cheaper.
Even with a full solar setup, an ASHP does not currently make financial sense.

Same for most I'd expect.
At least the info allows you to see that ASHP and gas are basically the same cost ignoring install.

Which makes replacing gas for gas significantly cheaper.

18-12k (Inc government grant, amount of extra work etc) vs 2-3k for a direct replacement


We have a looooong way to go to replace gas.
 
The big issue I'm sure many of us face is apart from loft insulation everything else is hugely expensive. And few of us are in our long term (dare I say it, forever) homes.
It just never seems to make sense. Even if you can afford it.

Throw in poorer people, who often live in the worst insulated properties and there is not even a choice here.

Really, unless the government (ie us via taxes) stump up serious cash we aren't going to change materially as a country.

Beyond loft insulation you're looking at 3-15k+ for any sort of gains. And they are usually small gains. You'll certainly never get a return for most of them (unless gas prices really spike)



Solar etc is a better investment than ASHP bang for buck. Once you've stumped up that, which might pair nicely with an ASHP you're well into the 20k cost.
The vast majority simply don't have that kind of cash. And if they do, it's better used elsewhere.
 
I think its fair to say that on the whole older properties (victorian terraces etc) are currently seen as more desirable than newer houses.

Does anyone feel like this will massively change over the nest few years, as the reality of the costs & particilarly forecast future costs in keeping these old inefficient houses heated starts to become more widely realised?
 
I think its fair to say that on the whole older properties (victorian terraces etc) are currently seen as more desirable than newer houses.

Does anyone feel like this will massively change over the nest few years, as the reality of the costs & particilarly forecast future costs in keeping these old inefficient houses heated starts to become more widely realised?
perhaps....
1 thing i do think is that, whilst i am sympathetic to protecting older houses for their heritage.... the rules are goign to have to get with the times and slacken off somewhat imo.

houses need to be able to be fit for purpose, which includes things such as modern performing doors/windows, insulation and even solar......... if that takes away a bit from the rustic look of a property then so be it, its the lesser evil imo.
 
Reading some of these posts, what the hell are you people powering to get the bills of the size you are quoting...crazy

I just logged into my account and I'm nearly £300 in credit.:)
 
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