Energy Prices (Strictly NO referrals!)

[413x]

I think its fair to say that on the whole older properties (victorian terraces etc) are currently seen as more desirable than newer houses.

Does anyone feel like this will massively change over the nest few years, as the reality of the costs & particilarly forecast future costs in keeping these old inefficient houses heated starts to become more widely realised?

Its certainly made me think.

Next House I'd like to be more classic. Not because I want an old house aesthetically. But because more space (outdoors) doesn't come with new builds.

But I am reassessing this.
My sisters house is new build. Its so warm and cheap even vs my 1999 build house.
So fear of what a really old property might cost to run is real.

 

[adam cool dude]

Its utter gash to be honest. Gas boiler install is far below this for most people and heat pump install with all the required housing changes are far higher. I hate this disingenuous stuff, just be straight with people.

Our gas boiler is at least 12 years old and just had it serviced and it works just as well as it did when new. (I flush it once a year and get someone to look at the gas bits). A well maintained gas boiler will easily last 20 years. Especially if bought now.

 

[SpellowHouse]

Its utter gash to be honest. Gas boiler install is far below this for most people and heat pump install with all the required housing changes are far higher. I hate this disingenuous stuff, just be straight with people.

Heat pumps are to save the planet, not money. They only really become effective if you have solar as well.

 

[SpellowHouse]

Our gas boiler is at least 12 years old and just had it serviced and it works just as well as it did when new. (I flush it once a year and get someone to look at the gas bits). A well maintained gas boiler will easily last 20 years. Especially if bought now.

I've said it before, mine is even older than that! It's about forty years old. Last year it had a new gas valve fitted, which was £125, and that will probably be it for the another 40 years! The maintenance costs are effectively zero.

 

[silversurfer]

Ultimately, we are trending towards greater efficiency. My family literally owned and operated a Welsh coal mine in those great days when coal was king but it was never as efficient as modern energy can be. We are going to keep seeing improvements to solar and other alternatives. They havent even touched hydro barely and Wales sure gets a lot of water so thats silly.
Politics is to blame mostly, we're steering through energy security like we've downed a bottle of rum but eventually it'll get to a proper solution beyond just burning rocks or trees. I like nat gas and its actually not a bad source of energy but eventually we will get better ways to make electric, sadly its taking a decade at least at this rate so do be ready for winter 2023/24 imo etc.

Weather right now is quite mild and looking over for the next week, if that continues for many weeks it'll be clear for many people for a while but thats the time to be ready for 6+ months from now

what the hell are you people powering to get the bills of the size you are quoting

A single person comparing themselves to a family especially with young children would be incorrect from the get go

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

I've said it before, mine is even older than that! It's about forty years old. Last year it had a new gas valve fitted, which was £125, and that will probably be it for the another 40 years! The maintenance costs are effectively zero.

Its probably grossly inefficient however

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

The big issue I'm sure many of us face is apart from loft insulation everything else is hugely expensive. And few of us are in our long term (dare I say it, forever) homes.
It just never seems to make sense. Even if you can afford it.

Throw in poorer people, who often live in the worst insulated properties and there is not even a choice here.

Really, unless the government (ie us via taxes) stump up serious cash we aren't going to change materially as a country.

Beyond loft insulation you're looking at 3-15k+ for any sort of gains. And they are usually small gains. You'll certainly never get a return for most of them (unless gas prices really spike)



Solar etc is a better investment than ASHP bang for buck. Once you've stumped up that, which might pair nicely with an ASHP you're well into the 20k cost.
The vast majority simply don't have that kind of cash. And if they do, it's better used elsewhere.

Not necessarily. There are still many properties that aren't double glazed.
IMO all houses should be double glazed in regards windows even if not doors. (Doors are comparatively expensive compared to windows)

Also I am sure triple glazing will become more popular, its not massively more efficient but its far nicer in regards drafts.

Even older double glazed windows lose effectiveness with seals etc
Just some routine maintenance here can make a difference.

Bringing back some of the things our predecessors used far more would also help. They have become unfashionable, door curtains, heavy window curtains. Bed socks and hats etc.

IMO sooner or later we have to face the reality of starting to demolish some of the older housing.
We could also stop the fixation with building on site. Factory produced buildings (modern ones) are cheaper, better insulated and built etc.

 

[kevman]

Just got an ashp and solar installed last week.
So far am impressed by the heat it kicks out and how quiet it is.
We did install as part of house major overall and extension - all new plumbing and rads
The house is a mix of solid wall and new build
It needs quite a bit of space both inside and out
We were on lpg so running costs should be improved
It is not the magic bullet the gov is hoping for but for us it made sense

 

[bigmike20vt]

Heat pumps are to save the planet, not money.

and that is great for those who can afford to "do the right thing" as it were. I too am one of the lucky few (I put my cash into solar and battery, but will asses heating when the time comes to change)

but you can't expect people who are just about getting by feeding their family and keeping warm , OR people barely making their mortgage payments to put themselves in a position where they CANT afford to do those things by buying a heat pump based heating system.

the whole beauty of renewables is that they are CHEAPER than fossil fuels, so in this case we should be able to have our cake and eat it.

for mass environmentally sustainable home heating to work, it has to be made affordable as well.

 

[BigT]

perhaps....
1 thing i do think is that, whilst i am sympathetic to protecting older houses for their heritage.... the rules are goign to have to get with the times and slacken off somewhat imo.

houses need to be able to be fit for purpose, which includes things such as modern performing doors/windows, insulation and even solar......... if that takes away a bit from the rustic look of a property then so be it, its the lesser evil imo.

It's not even the "rules". It's the interpretation of the rules by a specific individual on a given day it feels like sometimes. 600 years old house here with lovely open eaves. Double glazing has been refused, solar refused twice etc. There's no way these sorts of houses will be desirable any more when buyers find out the energy costs. It's madness because I can get double glazed windows that, barring forensic examination, look to all extent like the single glazed wodden windows in situ so it's not like it even detracts from the visual character of the house. Actually they'd look better because the pig ugly secondary glazing in place definitely doesn't look like a master craftsman constructed it in days-gone-by.

Solar on the roof maybe I understand but they've refused a ground based installation too since the listing applies up to the curtilage. I can legally let the grass turn to a weed filled eyesore but some solar panels, no way!

 

[Trig]

Solar on the roof maybe I understand but they've refused a ground based installation too since the listing applies up to the curtilage. I can legally let the grass turn to a weed filled eyesore but some solar panels, no way!

Have you seen the Tesla solar roof stuff, their panels look like roof tiles rather than the 'stick out like a sort thumb' sort most people have..

 

[SpellowHouse]

and that is great for those who can afford to "do the right thing" as it were. I too am one of the lucky few (I put my cash into solar and battery, but will asses heating when the time comes to change)

but you can't expect people who are just about getting by feeding their family and keeping warm , OR people barely making their mortgage payments to put themselves in a position where they CANT afford to do those things by buying a heat pump based heating system.

the whole beauty of renewables is that they are CHEAPER than fossil fuels, so in this case we should be able to have our cake and eat it.

for mass environmentally sustainable home heating to work, it has to be made affordable as well.

Absolutely and the government scheme doesn't really help because (once again) it only benefits people who have a spare few thousand to cover a good percentage of the cost. There are too many (expensive) hoops to jump through, then they wonder why the takeup is lower than they expected.

It's not even the "rules". It's the interpretation of the rules by a specific individual on a given day it feels like sometimes. 600 years old house here with lovely open eaves. Double glazing has been refused, solar refused twice etc. There's no way these sorts of houses will be desirable any more when buyers find out the energy costs. It's madness because I can get double glazed windows that, barring forensic examination, look to all extent like the single glazed wodden windows in situ so it's not like it even detracts from the visual character of the house. Actually they'd look better because the pig ugly secondary glazing in place definitely doesn't look like a master craftsman constructed it in days-gone-by.

Solar on the roof maybe I understand but they've refused a ground based installation too since the listing applies up to the curtilage. I can legally let the grass turn to a weed filled eyesore but some solar panels, no way!

Properties now have a minimum EPC they need to beat or they can't be rented. This is leaving some older properties in Cornwall as pretty much unsellable.

 

[SpellowHouse]

Its probably grossly inefficient however

Not really.
Of course the could be some savings with a more efficient boiler but in my case the cost of a new boiler and the maintenance of a something more complex far outweighs any savings. I would never make my money back if I replaced it.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

Not really.
Of course the could be some savings with a more efficient boiler but in my case the cost of a new boiler and the maintenance of a something more complex far outweighs any savings. I would never make my money back if I replaced it.

Its hard to say. I used to work for a company that had made boilers in teh past and they stopped in the late 80s as the investment needed to to get upto spec on efficiency was significant.
You need to factor in usage, eg the below shows how much they have imporoved. IIRC when I was there in teh 80s they were talking of our models being around 55% efficient.

• Over 25 years old: 60-70% efficient
• 20 years old: 75% efficient
• 15 years old 80-85% efficient
• 10+ years old 80-85% efficient

 

[Uther]

Have you seen the Tesla solar roof stuff, their panels look like roof tiles rather than the 'stick out like a sort thumb' sort most people have..

It might be thatched...
It's mental that he's not allowed to have panels in the garden. Probably by some jobsworth who might well have them on his own house.

 

[Kelt]

There's another Octopus saving session today, 5:30-6:30.

 

[jpaul]

I've said it before, mine is even older than that! It's about forty years old. Last year it had a new gas valve fitted, which was £125, and that will probably be it for the another 40 years! The maintenance costs are effectively zero.

yes - saving does not offset install cost and increased unreliability V
currently in a 10year old house and at like neighbours have had to have call-outs to fix logic+ condensing boiler - ironically mine were both problems with evacuating condensate(not because of freezing/blockage)
parents with a 20+ year old Potterton had had no problems, but the new condensing ideal logic heat has 8 year warranty

with the new heat-pumps - other reason to hold off is the reduction in maintenance cost when they make them more modular so refrigerant circuit is isolated.

modern cars with turbos etc. are similarly maintenance liabilities unlike naturally aspirated ancestors.

Spoiler: analysis

UK offers for cavity wall/loft insulation /boilers - father wanted to know if it was worth while updating a 20 year old boiler -
turns out the government cost cutting figures are optimistic versus reality

Actual energy savings from efficiency measures only half what is officially claimed | Carbon Commentary

( This article provided some of the data for the Guardian's article on energy efficiency on 18.01.14. I have put it at the top of this web site in order to make it easy to find. Chris Goodall) Research published by DECC last month showed that home insulation measures deliver half t

www.carboncommentary.com

Research published by DECC last month showed that home insulation measures deliver half the savings that are claimed. A study of homeowners installing a package of cavity and loft insulation and a new boiler in 2010 indicated a 19% reduction in energy use, and a likely saving of about £140 at current gas prices.
(gas prices increased since then but the percentages remain the same)

Household Energy Efficiency detailed release: Great Britain Data to December 2020 18 March 2021

 

[413x]

Not really.
Of course the could be some savings with a more efficient boiler but in my case the cost of a new boiler and the maintenance of a something more complex far outweighs any savings. I would never make my money back if I replaced it.

It will be inefficient. But like you say, it's basically never worth changing for a new one... Until it breaks or cost of repair is too high.

 

[413x]

and that is great for those who can afford to "do the right thing" as it were. I too am one of the lucky few (I put my cash into solar and battery, but will asses heating when the time comes to change)

but you can't expect people who are just about getting by feeding their family and keeping warm , OR people barely making their mortgage payments to put themselves in a position where they CANT afford to do those things by buying a heat pump based heating system.

the whole beauty of renewables is that they are CHEAPER than fossil fuels, so in this case we should be able to have our cake and eat it.

for mass environmentally sustainable home heating to work, it has to be made affordable as well.

Even if you can afford it, it's only a smart move if it's a very very long term house. Even then it's questionable.

It perfectly possible you'd pay for one. And 3 years later a new type of tech comes along cheaper and better.
Its just not worth it except for a small number of people.

If gas prices level off much higher that's different. But right now? It's a nope from me.

 

[BigT]

Have you seen the Tesla solar roof stuff, their panels look like roof tiles rather than the 'stick out like a sort thumb' sort most people have..

I have and they are very smart. But they don't look like Kent peg tiles and thus couldn't possibly be installed on or near a period building according to our council nimbys.

Don't get me wrong, when you're the custodian of a listed property you know that things are never straightforward but there are ways to use modern construction and materials and maintain the look, character and huge parts of the original building and make it sympathetic to the style of the property as well.