Energy Suppliers

Its not usage per day. Its billing period usage spread semi equally per day. Assume to get the correct average at line and total level.
So you pay [total usage] x [average rate] for the billing period. The day by day details are just nonsense made up in effect.

So any switching from day to day makes no difference if its within the billing period.

This bit is right, "Energy Used* 66.5 kWh @ 3.72p/kWh† £2.47" where † This is the average daily unit rate.
 
Mercenary Keyboard Warrior said:
Its not usage per day. Its billing period usage spread semi equally per day. Assume to get the correct average at line and total level.
So you pay [total usage] x [average rate] for the billing period. The day by day details are just nonsense made up in effect.

So any switching from day to day makes no difference if its within the billing period.

This bit is right, "Energy Used* 66.5 kWh @ 3.72p/kWh† £2.47" where † This is the average daily unit rate.
Click to expand...

Not how it works I think, you'll see an average paid but it will be made up of actual usage each day as I understand it.

The bill has to spit out an average at some point based on all the day and values you've had, and that is what it breaks it down to. I don't believe it's taking your unit count used and then just averaging the prices across the day to do it, otherwise what would be the point of the breakdown by day?

Even so, I think for most people this wouldn't be that different day to day anyway, vs estimated/averaged billing.

Take my pic above and it says £6.06. The bill then says:

Energy Used* 145.3 kWh @ 4.17p/kWh† £6.06

So that becomes what my average cost was, but it's not just calculated that way, there is a varied cost shown per day which sums to £6.06.

Edit - Checking usage it does appear they've done something to change the figures as my actual is different compared to the breakdown:

iYfr1lc.png


Maybe you're right, or maybe they're missing some data and just start estimating it (I did read they can do this if any data is missing). The gas meter is perhaps less reliable.
 
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HungryHippos said:
Not how it works I think, you'll see an average paid but it will be made up of actual usage each day as I understand it.

The bill has to spit out an average at some point based on all the day and values you've had, and that is what it breaks it down to. I don't believe it's taking your unit count used and then just averaging the prices across the day to do it, otherwise what would be the point of the breakdown by day?

Even so, I think for most people this wouldn't be that different day to day anyway, vs estimated/averaged billing.
Click to expand...

Its deffo not real numbers. They average the usage cost (somehow). From my records, my approx Kwh of gas per day and prices per Octopus below.

Problem is neither weighted (to usage) nor simple (over period) average work out exactly to match how they bill per unit. So I guess they work to more decimal points in more than one place, just only display 2.
It would seem rather daft to calculate an accurate daily figure and then send a bill breakdown thats based on a completely different methodology.

Bill

6th May 2023 82.600 p/thm 4.11 p/kWh 3.29 kWh £0.14
7th May 2023 82.600 p/thm 4.11 p/kWh 3.15 kWh £0.13
8th May 2023 82.600 p/thm 4.11 p/kWh 3.03 kWh £0.12
9th May 2023 82.600 p/thm 4.11 p/kWh 2.98 kWh £0.12
10th May 2023 85.050 p/thm 4.20 p/kWh 2.94 kWh £0.12
11th May 2023 81.550 p/thm 4.07 p/kWh 2.89 kWh £0.12
12th May 2023 78.550 p/thm 3.96 p/kWh 2.91 kWh £0.12
13th May 2023 78.550 p/thm 3.96 p/kWh 2.92 kWh £0.12
14th May 2023 78.550 p/thm 3.96 p/kWh 2.83 kWh £0.11
15th May 2023 78.550 p/thm 3.96 p/kWh 2.76 kWh £0.11
16th May 2023 73.100 p/thm 3.77 p/kWh 2.73 kWh £0.10
17th May 2023 74.450 p/thm 3.82 p/kWh 2.69 kWh £0.10
18th May 2023 71.550 p/thm 3.71 p/kWh 2.64 kWh £0.10
19th May 2023 64.100 p/thm 3.44 p/kWh 2.62 kWh £0.09
20th May 2023 63.550 p/thm 3.42 p/kWh 2.57 kWh £0.09
21st May 2023 63.550 p/thm 3.42 p/kWh 2.43 kWh £0.08
22nd May 2023 65.550 p/thm 3.49 p/kWh 2.33 kWh £0.08
23rd May 2023 64.600 p/thm 3.46 p/kWh 2.26 kWh £0.08
24th May 2023 67.600 p/thm 3.57 p/kWh 2.21 kWh £0.08
25th May 2023 65.700 p/thm 3.50 p/kWh 2.19 kWh £0.08
26th May 2023 58.100 p/thm 3.23 p/kWh 2.21 kWh £0.07
27th May 2023 58.100 p/thm 3.23 p/kWh 2.20 kWh £0.07
28th May 2023 58.100 p/thm 3.23 p/kWh 1.99 kWh £0.06
29th May 2023 58.100 p/thm 3.23 p/kWh 1.96 kWh £0.06
30th May 2023 58.500 p/thm 3.24 p/kWh 1.90 kWh £0.06
31st May 2023 60.550 p/thm 3.31 p/kWh 1.85 kWh £0.06
Totals: 66.5 kWh £2.47
(which lines up with the calc I posted above from bill summary)

real data (prices inc VAT)
(if I take my real usage x daily rate (/1.05) I get a value of £2.51 when summing all the lines with some usage on a day, close I know, don't have enough usage to get much of a gap on any of the data)

Usage approxPrice (inc)
06-May​
3.839​
4.32​
07-May​
0​
4.32​
08-May​
1.166​
4.32​
09-May​
0​
4.32​
10-May​
0​
4.41​
11-May​
0​
4.27​
12-May​
14.817​
4.16​
13-May​
10.978​
4.16​
14-May​
2.596​
4.16​
15-May​
2.134​
4.16​
16-May​
0​
3.96​
17-May​
15.499​
4.01​
18-May​
2.508​
3.9​
19-May​
0​
3.61​
20-May​
0​
3.59​
21-May​
0.495​
3.59​
22-May​
0​
3.66​
23-May​
0​
3.63​
24-May​
0​
3.75​
25-May​
0​
3.67​
26-May​
4.356​
3.39​
27-May​
0​
3.39​
28-May​
0.616​
3.39​
29-May​
0​
3.39​
30-May​
4.323​
3.4​
31-May​
3.025​
3.48​
Avg est ex vat
3.67619​
 
Just to add, DM said this when I signed up :
"Something to bear in mind as well is that you get charged for the monthly average of all the daily readings, not on a day to day basis."

Which I thought, well that makes no sense as they have daily readings from smart meter!
But it does seem to be how they do it. Maybe because people who were on before Feb 23 could be without a smart meter!
 
Yes I can see from my stats it's some form of shenanigans, though I stand by the statement that even if it did daily billing properly, it wouldn't be miles off anyway.

You're right here, which makes the inclusion of the daily stats even weirder as they seem to serve no purpose!
 
Mercenary Keyboard Warrior said:
to add, DM said this when I signed up :
"Something to bear in mind as well is that you get charged for the monthly average of all the daily readings, not on a day to day basis."
Click to expand...

Not disputing what you were told but surely this can't be right? What's the point of a daily value otherwise, it wouldn't incentivise you to shift consumption/ reduce costs.
 
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HungryHippos said:
Yes I can see from my stats it's some form of shenanigans, though I stand by the statement that even if it did daily billing properly, it wouldn't be miles off anyway.

You're right here, which makes the inclusion of the daily stats even weirder as they seem to serve no purpose!
Click to expand...

yes, unless you were specifically manipulating when you used gas (such as if you could switch between elec and gas on a whim, cough ;) ) then its unlikely your daily average x the average price would be significantly different.
You would need a very volatile price component I think to generate a significantly different bill.

My suspicion is that there is some kind of octopus balancing going on to ensure they charge out enough at the right prices. As they do not have full analysis for everyone (as I pointed out, prior to Feb 23 you could be on this tariff without a SM) then they do a spreading type calculation.
As such they probably record the transactions as such in their books.

Zero benefit for the consumer but gets what they need where they need it at their end.
 
Mercenary Keyboard Warrior said:
See above.
Click to expand...

If it's within a few pence it doesn't really matter, but if during the winter we had a day where gas spiked say 20p per unit on one particular day, and I decided not to put the heating on or take a shower, then found out that I'd been billed my entire month at the average anyway, then this would prompt a complaint. Because it defeats the purpose of having the daily rates.
 
even with a smart gas meter, can you accurately see if Octopus were missing days of smart gas meter communication (from dcc?], such that they have had to average days, maybe even using ambient temp;


danlightbulb said:
Could there be an app/API that we could sign up to that's sends us a notification at midnight each day with today's rate?
Click to expand...

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com www.reddit.com
seems there's a powershell script on github, https://github.com/SwarfegaGit/OctopusEnergyAPI/blob/main/TrackerTarrifs.ps1
 
I record my usage as part of my data I need for accurate solar benefit calcs.
Gas readings have been there every day for me (inc the 30 min breakdowns) and look accurate.

My understanding is that smart gas meters need a smart elec meter as the elec meter does the actual communication, gas meters have limited power to send data to that locally rather than the high power needed to send to a remote receiver.

danlightbulb said:
If it's within a few pence it doesn't really matter, but if during the winter we had a day where gas spiked say 20p per unit on one particular day, and I decided not to put the heating on or take a shower, then found out that I'd been billed my entire month at the average anyway, then this would prompt a complaint. Because it defeats the purpose of having the daily rates.
Click to expand...

Some people claim they get actuals per day, but I do wonder if its because the model makes it look uneven

They were very clear with me when I signed up thats how it worked.
 
If it helps this is the full message they sent to me :

Thanks for expressing your interest in Octopus Tracker. You can read more about the Tracker tariff here: https://octopus.energy/smart/tracker
While this can represent good value, it does involve some risk. This website is a useful resource to see how the price of Tracker has changed daily in your region over the past month: http://mysmartenergy.uk
Also be aware that the Energy Price Guarantee works differently on Tracker. It doesn't cap the maximum rate at the same levels as the flexible tariff, which can leave you exposed to higher costs. You can read more about this here: https://octopus.energy/tracker-faqs/
Something to bear in mind as well is that you get charged for the monthly average of all the daily readings, not on a day to day basis.
If you still wish to switch to Octopus Tracker then please let us know and we can action this for you.
We always want to make sure customers are fully aware of the potential risk involved with this tariff.
 
SSE fixed my meter board today, can't get the smart meter people back until the 18th of July... gonna be 2 months without a working gas meter now.
 
Mercenary Keyboard Warrior said:
Its not usage per day. Its billing period usage spread semi equally per day. Assume to get the correct average at line and total level.
So you pay [total usage] x [average rate] for the billing period. The day by day details are just nonsense made up in effect.

So any switching from day to day makes no difference if its within the billing period.

This bit is right, "Energy Used* 66.5 kWh @ 3.72p/kWh† £2.47" where † This is the average daily unit rate.
Click to expand...
Where is this quoted? I checked the FAQ page after you posted, there is a section about averages but they only apply on a dumb meter, it does state on a smart meter they use the automated readings for the billing.

But if I understand you right if e.g. your average daily usage for the billing period is 7kWh, then each day is billed at 7kWh usage?

Will look the fool if my first tracker is much more then I have projected, I have been averaging £39 for Agile last 3 months, thats inclusive of VAT and SC, July assuming similar market conditions with the higher SC would be around £45-46 (with more on top for no longer EPG capped peak time rates and loss of 35p cap), I have calculated very similar for tracker, possibly a bit lower as I added some fluff on top for predicted usage. In some ways I am regretting a little, I felt the waiting time for tracker would allow me to think on it more and also assess how Agile turns out in a post EPG world, I wasnt expecting them to move me when I queried about the confirmation. But will see what happens. The current formulas do appear to favour tracker when wholesale costs are higher.
 
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chrcoluk said:
Where is this quoted? I checked the FAQ page after you posted, there is a section about averages but they only apply on a dumb meter, it does state on a smart meter they use the automated readings for the billing.

But if I understand you right if e.g. your average daily usage for the billing period is 7kWh, then each day is billed at 7kWh usage?

Will look the fool if my first tracker is much more then I have projected, I have been averaging £39 for Agile last 3 months, thats inclusive of VAT and SC, July assuming similar market conditions with the higher SC would be around £45-46 (with more on top for no longer EPG capped peak time rates and loss of 35p cap), I have calculated very similar for tracker, possibly a bit lower as I added some fluff on top for predicted usage. In some ways I am regretting a little, I felt the waiting time for tracker would allow me to think on it more and also assess how Agile turns out in a post EPG world, I wasnt expecting them to move me when I queried about the confirmation. But will see what happens. The current formulas do appear to favour tracker when wholesale costs are higher.
Click to expand...

Its not quoted its how its billed.
If you scroll up you can see my bill data and my actual data which very much do not align.

As Hippo says, unless you have very significant deviations between days (usage and/or cost) then the averages and bills will be very close.
 
jpaul said:
even with a smart gas meter, can you accurately see if Octopus were missing days of smart gas meter communication (from dcc?], such that they have had to average days, maybe even using ambient temp;



Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com www.reddit.com
seems there's a powershell script on github, https://github.com/SwarfegaGit/OctopusEnergyAPI/blob/main/TrackerTarrifs.ps1
Click to expand...

I clicked on something I never had before and this is interesting. Yesterdays gas by 30 min intervals...
All 30 min readings there, apart from 00:30am and 1:00am. I think this is because Octopus do something funny with that hour when BST is active.
But otherwise its clear meter readings are there every 30 mins.

Time
Reading
00:00:00
Smart
0 m³
01:30:00
Smart
0 m³
02:00:00
Smart
0 m³
02:30:00
Smart
0 m³
03:00:00
Smart
0 m³
03:30:00
Smart
0 m³
04:00:00
Smart
0 m³
04:30:00
Smart
0 m³
05:00:00
Smart
0 m³
05:30:00
Smart
0 m³
06:00:00
Smart
0 m³
06:30:00
Smart
0 m³
07:00:00
Smart
0 m³
07:30:00
Smart
0 m³
08:00:00
Smart
0 m³
08:30:00
Smart
0 m³
09:00:00
Smart
0 m³
09:30:00
Smart
0 m³
10:00:00
Smart
0 m³
10:30:00
Smart
0 m³
11:00:00
Smart
0 m³
11:30:00
Smart
0 m³
12:00:00
Smart
0 m³
12:30:00
Smart
0 m³
13:00:00
Smart
0 m³
13:30:00
Smart
0 m³
14:00:00
Smart
0 m³
14:30:00
Smart
0 m³
15:00:00
Smart
0 m³
15:30:00
Smart
0 m³
16:00:00
Smart
0 m³
16:30:00
Smart
0 m³
17:00:00
Smart
0 m³
17:30:00
Smart
0 m³
18:00:00
Smart
0 m³
18:30:00
Smart
0 m³
19:00:00
Smart
0.158 m³
19:30:00
Smart
0 m³
20:00:00
Smart
0 m³
20:30:00
Smart
0 m³
21:00:00
Smart
0 m³
21:30:00
Smart
0 m³
22:00:00
Smart
0 m³
22:30:00
Smart
0 m³
23:00:00
Smart
0 m³
23:30:00
Smart
0 m³
 
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