English & CL Football [6th - 10th Mar 2010] **spoilers**

FrankJH said:
1stly I agree Man Utd's goals do come through Rooney majority of the time, but we arent expecting him to do everything - he is scoring more because he is playing consistantly upfront with people assisting a lot more than previously. A little different from core of Arsenal's midfield "risking" going further forward and leaving an open midfield on a counter attack

Last night is a bit of a one off - Porto where pretty awful, surely you can see that most of the top 10 EPL teams could have thrashed them last night? Arsenal have looked weak at the back for majority of the season, even though Vermalen (sp?) has been terrific, you look likely to concede (in EPL) nearly every game

Not much in it, but still think you have much better chance (even though its remote even given remaining games) in EPL than you ever have in the CL :)
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I think the Arsenal defence get unfair criticism, they're much, much more exposed than any of the other top teams' defences, the full backs especially get little to no cover and are regularly faced with marking two players, Clichy especially since Arshavin is possibly the laziest player in the league.

Vermaelen and Gallas have both had great seasons induvidually I think, but have conceded more goals than they would have if they weren't playing behind a team of attackers who don't really like defending!
 
Tummy said:
People have said this everytime a "big" name has left Manchester United.

Time and time again, Fergie has built a new team with new players and wins things.
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Exactly, Kinda sum's it up tbh, i might paste this every time someone mentions anything about it :p
 
FrankJH said:
Last night is a bit of a one off - Porto where pretty awful, surely you can see that most of the top 10 EPL teams could have thrashed them last night? Arsenal have looked weak at the back for majority of the season, even though Vermalen (sp?) has been terrific, you look likely to concede (in EPL) nearly every game

Not much in it, but still think you have much better chance (even though its remote even given remaining games) in EPL than you ever have in the CL :)
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I really couldn't tell from your post before this one, were you suggesting, that no disrespect to Real , Bayern and Porto but Milan are a better team?

I find it hilarious that as an Arsenal fan I can admit Porto were woeful, but somehow you think Real because they went out, Bayern, are all worse than Milan.

Milan were just about exactly on Porto's level, I'd actually put them very marginally ahead of Porto, but both are significantly worse than Lyon, Real, Bayern. They barely put out a performance and only Utd's woeful first 45 minutes in the first leg made Milan look remotely good. I'd suggest the exact same number of teams from the prem league who could beat Porto could have beaten Milan aswell.


As for people laughing at Ronaldo, he could easily be the difference between Real, now top, winning the title and not, his beloved club. Boo hoo champs league, he's won that, how many La Liga titles does he have and what do you think he wants more. Add in the fact that he's probably making far more than twice what he used to, due largely to the tax loophole in Spain meaning he's likely paying 25% tax instead of 50%+ tax on a far smaller wage to begin with........... I don't think he'll be crying himself to sleep, especially as Utd will not likely win the Champs league.
 
jakeke said:
I think the Arsenal defence get unfair criticism, they're much, much more exposed than any of the other top teams' defences, the full backs especially get little to no cover and are regularly faced with marking two players, Clichy especially since Arshavin is possibly the laziest player in the league.

Vermaelen and Gallas have both had great seasons induvidually I think, but have conceded more goals than they would have if they weren't playing behind a team of attackers who don't really like defending!
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The whole point of a 4-3-3, is one less striker and two MUCH MORE ADVANCED wingers. Its not Arshavins job to get back for every attack, he's basically a 2nd striker, the point of having the central midfield 3, with two defensive minded instead of one, is that THEY move across to cover and help on the wings.

Other than the fact I see Arshavin get back plenty of times to help, and he's no where near being the laziest player in the league, that job is supposed to be Song/Diaby/Denilson's in this system, NOT Arshavin, the fact that we're completely exposed in all games when Song plays, is not Arshavins fault.

If you noticed, not moments after their first good chance in the second half Song was again, for no known reason, trying to run into THEIR box, and they broke on us yet again, even the commentator made a huge deal about what the heck Song was doing in their box and if the keeper had just thrown it over Song/Diaby their midfield would have been unopposed with a 2-1 player advantage against our defence, but he decided to hoof it instead.

Song, and Diaby and Denilson have done that all year generally at the worst of times, and we don't get caught out against turd teams like Porto, but its cost us in every big game this year and every big game last year.

Also yes, individually Verm, Gallas, Clichy in all but a few games right back from injury have been outstanding in general, Eboue's been very solid when he's played right back, Sagna has put in numerous terrible performances but not close to the majority of our goals are conceded down his side.

When your back 4 isn't at fault for most of the goals conceded, and they often come straight through central midfield, the blame is quite easy to assign.
 
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bloodline76 said:
Utd have only won the worthless cup at the moment. I think he will reflect at the end of the season as to if he made the right choice. Whilst sitting on his pile of money... :D
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Don't think Ronaldo left because of money or he thought United wouldn't win anything. I don't think he'll regret leaving even if Real fail to win anything. He wanted to play for Real so he did and fulfilled his "dream".
He's won pretty much every trophy there is to win while he was at United. There wasn't really any point for him to stay and time was perfect for it. By leaving when he did he probably earned ~20mil more than if United kept him for longer or sold season earlier.
 
Shamikebab said:
I'd put Milan on the same level as Bayern, below Madrid and above Porto.
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I wouldn't disagree with that, I really do think Porto were appauling and Milan certainly have some individual players who surpass anything Porto have, by a mile, but they don't play well as a team, the best players are old or lazy(Seedorf/Ronaldinho/Pirlo... who looked shattered after about 10 mins) but the rest of Milans team is poor.

Its just FrankJH seems to be suggesting Utd crushed a brilliant team so have a great shot at the cup while Arsenal smashed a crappy team and it means nothing. I'd say the latter is true for Arsenal and Utd's situation in this round, both battered very very poor opposition. Bayern have some decent players, who at least aren't old and shattered, they have the ability to put in a decent performance and I think are more likely to than Milan(due to their best players not being limited to half a game due to age more than anything).

Madrid have some supreme talent but have the inconsistancy that comes with a team with so many new players in.
 
drunkenmaster said:
The whole point of a 4-3-3, is one less striker and two MUCH MORE ADVANCED wingers. Its not Arshavins job to get back for every attack, he's basically a 2nd striker, the point of having the central midfield 3, with two defensive minded instead of one, is that THEY move across to cover and help on the wings.

Other than the fact I see Arshavin get back plenty of times to help, and he's no where near being the laziest player in the league, that job is supposed to be Song/Diaby/Denilson's in this system, NOT Arshavin, the fact that we're completely exposed in all games when Song plays, is not Arshavins fault.

If you noticed, not moments after their first good chance in the second half Song was again, for no known reason, trying to run into THEIR box, and they broke on us yet again, even the commentator made a huge deal about what the heck Song was doing in their box and if the keeper had just thrown it over Song/Diaby their midfield would have been unopposed with a 2-1 player advantage against our defence, but he decided to hoof it instead.

Song, and Diaby and Denilson have done that all year generally at the worst of times, and we don't get caught out against turd teams like Porto, but its cost us in every big game this year and every big game last year.

Also yes, individually Verm, Gallas, Clichy in all but a few games right back from injury have been outstanding in general, Eboue's been very solid when he's played right back, Sagna has put in numerous terrible performances but not close to the majority of our goals are conceded down his side.

When your back 4 isn't at fault for most of the goals conceded, and they often come straight through central midfield, the blame is quite easy to assign.
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yup, this is the arsenal problem.

early on in the season, i amusingly recall andy gray laughing at Song running into the opposing teams box in the 90th minute when having only a 1 goal lead. that lad needs to sit firm, this is what a good defensive midfielder like makelele did. sits and mops up, covers when needed.
 
:) Consequence of the system. It creates many more goal scoring opportunities but also means you concede a a few too. I for one welcome the more exciting formation even if it is sometimes a disaster :D
 
Well with Songs single goal and assist, he's clearly really helping by running forwards for no reason constantly.

Being open is NOTHING to do with the system, but the inability of Song to actually sit back and play as a DM. Chelsea played a 4-3-3, and while doing so had the best defence in the league, with the best back 4 in the league, WITH A FANTASTIC DEFENSIVE MIDFIELDER. With Duff, and Robben, neither of which back then were of much help defensively at all. The difference was Makelele, and often another decent central midfielder of which there were several.

Sorry but were Chelsea a heavily conceding side in that system, are Barca, did they leak goals and chances against Utd. Did Makelele want personal glory and goals so rush forward, or was he disciplined throughout his entire career. WHen Barca need more defensive solidarity than Xavi stays back more, normally Yaya, or whoever they are playing in DM stays back and doesn't get sucked in.

I get really fed up with these excuses for our conceding, which is basically "Song's great".

He's not, he doesn't play as a DM, he meanders in and out of being a free role, when he wants to he simply ignores his duty, is always completely unaware of people running on his blind side because he NEVER looks behind him which cost us on two goals against Chelsea where players basically jogged past him.

You can't have 3 great defenders and a semi decent one, a team that keeps the ball well concede loads and often from midfield runners and not blame your DM. As said the clear difference between Chelsea's 4-3-3, and ours, is the quality of the DM. Verm and Gallas are two of the very best defenders in the league, both very strong, great tacklers, decent on the ball, great readers of the game, but they can't stop people making runs, nor being overrun.

I'm really curious as to what people attribute our conceding to, if we concede heavily to late midfield runners strolling into the box, something CB's aren't meant to deal with, who exactly is at fault. Arsenal fans almost universally think Gallas and Verm are brilliant, so if they are great, and we're conceding it doesn't make sense its down to them, otherwise you wouldn't think they were great...... so again, what is the problem?

People seem to forget absolutely loving Denilson ALL last season, then this season, think he's awful, he hasn't changed an iota, if you went back and watched any of the big games from last year we got spanked in and compare Denilson, or Song's performances from the late run of awful games, to how they play now, both are identical, and both play exactly like each other. Yet all of a sudden fans love Song and hate Denilson, if we had someone else for next year playing exactly the same way everyone would love the new guy and hate Song.

Does no one remember Nasri coming in as DM ahead of Song and Denilson and being embarassingly(for them) good, considering he's a midget whose never played there before. Also if Song's improve dramatically and Denilson is and was crap, then how come we concede, in a different system, exactly the same way, in the same situations as all last season? No I couldn't explain the exact same weakness's, in a different system when you decide to blame the new system either.
 
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Shamikebab said:
Just because they aren't the strongest team in Europe, they're still well up there and they have some players of real quality and experience at the highest level of competition.
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Still doesnt make them any good whether they have world class players or not...as i said Man Utd had an easy game against them...they didnt turn up much like Porto didnt last night against Arsenal...i think the result flattered Utd in all honesty.

I reckon the Qf's depending on who Utd get will see just how easy its been for Utd so far...am hoping its Bayern as i think they will give Utd a good thrashing...either them or Lyon who i thought played brilliantly against the big stars of Real tonight....ive always said Pellegrini isnt the man to win them things...they need a world class manager ie much like Man City and Hughes earlier this season.

FrankJH said:
Hadnt read this til just now :D
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Yes i feel exactly the same when reading your posts too:D
 
Just an observation from the highlight's last night, but does Wenger pick players based on how odd they look? I swear half the team are lesbians masquerading as football players.
 
Spawn said:
Still doesnt make them any good whether they have world class players or not...as i said Man Utd had an easy game against them...they didnt turn up much like Porto didnt last night against Arsenal...i think the result flattered Utd in all honesty.

I reckon the Qf's depending on who Utd get will see just how easy its been for Utd so far...am hoping its Bayern as i think they will give Utd a good thrashing...either them or Lyon who i thought played brilliantly against the big stars of Real tonight....ive always said Pellegrini isnt the man to win them things...they need a world class manager ie much like Man City and Hughes earlier this season.
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just laughs at you comparing Porto to AC Milan

(ps I never stated that AC where on the same level as Barca for example, dont think I even hinted at it, but they are a good step above Porto even when they play badly)

Well its quite amazing how you expected AC to give Utd a thrashing this time yesterday - give or take - yet now you change your tune

Personally I think Utd would do better facing Barca home and away , but I would give Utd better odds against Chelsea in a single match. Utd arent anywhere near the best they could be, or better than what they have been in the past, but with the players they have available today they can be confident about matching up to anyone.

IT does heavily depend on no injuries affecting players though (not even in vital positions, all the squad from last night plus at the very least Carrick and Giggs)

Anyway - I guess in a few weeks time we will see who gets / gives a thrashing:)
 
Just like to add...

Real Madrid.. *******

Shame Milan didn't put up much of a fight, really wanted them to push Man Utd all the way, knew they weren't going through though.

Rooney again... I hope he gets more goals than Ronaldo, just to add even more salt to Ronaldos wounds this year....
 
jakeke said:
AC are a little better than Porto but wouldn't have caused any of the English teams much of a problem
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lol, this is the same Porto that are THIRD in the Portuguese league? Hardly one of the top leagues in Europe. And how many players do they have that have won anything in Europe? Not many. Now compare that to Milan who are second in Serie A, one of the top leagues in Europe, and closing quickly on the leaders Inter, who someone said were up there with Barca, Chelsea and United as favourites. Then they have players all over the filed who have experience winning things at the highest level. Milan are quite a bit better than Porto.
 
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