Epic Games Store now open!

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

This twitter thread was linked to in the latest Jim Sterling video on the Epic store:

https://twitter.com/CaseyExplosion/status/1113436371610492929

It is worth a read.

However,the Epic CEO a few years ago attacked Microsoft when they wanted to open their own store,and accused them of pushing exclusivity to block the competition,and that everyone should fight this. Fast forward a few years,and his tune has changed:

https://www.thegamer.com/epic-boss-says-developers-win-game-store-wars-not-consumers/



It worries me with that kind of mindset the Epic CEO has,how things will progress. Remember this is the same bloke who has had no problems implementing certain features at an engine level in UE,meaning unless certain companies actively optimised for their GPUs,it would mean significant performance reductions natively.

Even Jim Sterling who has made valid criticisms of Steam and initially welcomed the Epic store,is now also wondering where this will lead to. Plus there is so many other things Valve has done - push Linux gaming,open source VR,game streaming APIs,etc. None of its competitors are doing that.

Epic store has less features than Origin,UPlay,GOG,the Twitch and Discord game stores FFS. It does not even have cloud saves yet. It offers no real advantages over a number of stores and is not even cheaper. They even had millions of Epic accounts compromised due to a 10+ year old bug.

Maybe instead of paying millions for bribes,they should have been spending that on making a launcher actually comparable in basic feature set to loads of other ones.

Also Huawei has had to submit to more intense scrutiny in the UK(they have a centre here where GCHQ can study their tech). Tencent is deeply involved in certain things like the social credit system. But since Fortnite is the hottest game now,its not a problem it appears.

 

[Zethor]

This twitter thread was linked to in the latest Jim Sterling video on the Epic store:

https://twitter.com/CaseyExplosion/status/1113436371610492929

It is worth a read.

However,the Epic CEO a few years ago attacked Microsoft when they wanted to open their own store,and accused them of pushing exclusivity to block the competition,and that everyone should fight this. Fast forward a few years,and his tune has changed:

https://www.thegamer.com/epic-boss-says-developers-win-game-store-wars-not-consumers/

It worries me with that kind of mindset the Epic CEO has,how things will progress. Remember this is the same bloke who has had no problems implementing certain features at an engine level in UE,meaning unless certain companies actively optimised for their GPUs,it would mean significant performance reductions natively.

Even Jim Sterling who has made valid criticisms of Steam and initially welcomed the Epic store,is now also wondering where this will lead to. Plus there is so many other things Valve has done - push Linux gaming,open source VR,game streaming APIs,etc. None of its competitors are doing that.

Epic store has less features than Origin,UPlay,GOG,the Twitch and Discord game stores FFS. It does not even have cloud saves yet. It offers no real advantages over a number of stores and is not even cheaper. They even had millions of Epic accounts compromised due to a 10+ year old bug.

Maybe instead of paying millions for bribes,they should have been spending that on making a launcher actually comparable in basic feature set to loads of other ones.

Also Huawei has had to submit to more intense scrutiny in the UK(they have a centre here where GCHQ can study their tech). Tencent is deeply involved in certain things like the social credit system. But since Fortnite is the hottest game now,its not a problem it appears.

What a load of rubbish in those Twitter ramblings.

"In fact, Epic/Tencent have no interest in "competition! Their business plan is to force Valve out of business, so that when steam doesn't exist any more, they're the new monopoly and can make *ALL THE MONEY*

What happens to games that were on Steam, but can't get on Epic's storefront? Are we going to be facing a potential digital dark age with a whole load of PC gaming history just dying with Steam? There's big questions here, and we should all be talking about it more.

OMFG THIS GIANT CORPORATION HAS A MONOPOLY ON THE MARKET BUT NOW A NEW CORPORATION IS COMING AND THEY WANT TO ELIMINATE THE OLD CORPORATION. AND ALL OF OUR OLD GAMES WILL DIE A DIGITAL DEATH OMFGWTFBBQ! BLA BLA GAMERS RISE UP!


Who cares if a CEO's tune changed? Have you ever run a business? You change, you adapt, or you get knocked out of the race so maybe it's time for Valve to do some changes instead of relaxing while the golden goose pops its eggs. If the new store has less features, you have the option to continue using Steam's features, while only running Epic to open the games on Epic. A scandalous idea, I know, but one that might just work!

As for bribes, what a laughable assertion. The money, along with the bigger cut from the sales, go to the developer and you know what they do, right? They make bloody games and you know what they can do with more money, right? More games.


Huawei has nothing to do with Tencent, other than being a Chinese company. "But... social credit system, something, something, DARK SIDE!". You don't mind the "dark side" when you use our smartphones or your PC components, most of which are produced by other Chinese corporations but you refuse to use their digital marketplace to buy games.

Utterly ridiculous.

 

[uncle_rufus]

**snip**
Utterly ridiculous.

Last time I checked I didn't log into my graphics card and other PC components and enter all my credit card details etc. to buy things from it as a service...

That said I don't completely disagree with your other points... thought the "devs get more money == more games" thing is a little tenuous... these massive deals are being made by the publishers not the developers... maybe they're re-investing it directly back into having the studios make more games... but I wouldn't surprise me if they're just lining their pockets with it - this is just a way to make more money out of the same amount of work (for all of the lower level devs etc. that are actually doing it)

 

[Zethor]

Last time I checked I didn't log into my graphics card and other PC components and enter all my credit card details etc. to buy things from it as a service...

That said I don't completely disagree with your other points... thought the "devs get more money == more games" thing is a little tenuous... these massive deals are being made by the publishers not the developers... maybe they're re-investing it directly back into having the studios make more games... but I wouldn't surprise me if they're just lining their pockets with it - this is just a way to make more money out of the same amount of work (for all of the lower level devs etc. that are actually doing it)

Do you really think that multibillion-dollar companies, be them Chinese, are out to steal your credit card details? As for security, shopping online has always come with security risks, most of the big data breaches have affected Western companies. Besides, the transactions are done through local companies, you always have the option to complain to your country's authorities.

Publishers don't pocket the extra money. Publishers and developers are business partners, revenues get shared. The developers themselves are saying the deal is good for them:

The lead designer and X-Com creator explained that the deal with Epic allows the studio to commit more to the launch, as well as enabling it to support the game more immediately after launch. Ultimately, he says, it will result in "a better game", and one that gets post-launch additions sooner.

 

[uncle_rufus]

Do you really think that multibillion-dollar companies, be them Chinese, are out to steal your credit card details? As for security, shopping online has always come with security risks, most of the big data breaches have affected Western companies. Besides, the transactions are done through local companies, you always have the option to complain to your country's authorities.

No I don't... I'm worried that the regular, practically monthly emails I already get about my existing Epic account (thanks to the Unreal Forums many years ago) telling me I should login and change my password asap due to some vague "for safety reasons" type of "uh-oh we gone and done another security boo-boo" make me think the security of what they're doing over there is really poor... so I'm not happy adding payment methods etc. when I can't trust that my account is secure

Publishers don't pocket the extra money. Publishers and developers are business partners, revenues get shared. The developers themselves are saying the deal is good for them:

The lead designer and X-Com creator explained that the deal with Epic allows the studio to commit more to the launch, as well as enabling it to support the game more immediately after launch. Ultimately, he says, it will result in "a better game", and one that gets post-launch additions sooner.

Phoenix Point is being self-published by Snapshot, also owned by Gollop, et al. so there's no separate publisher to make the deal and share anything... and Gollop has snuffled up a huge exclusivity payout on top of an already over-funded crowd-funding project, so what I guess all the extra money from that wasn't enough on it's own to enable them to support the game and they need another sack of money? Of course he's going to try and sell that to people as "the best thing for the game"

 

[Zethor]

No I don't... I'm worried that the regular, practically monthly emails I already get about my existing Epic account (thanks to the Unreal Forums many years ago) telling me I should login and change my password asap due to some vague "for safety reasons" type of "uh-oh we gone and done another security boo-boo" make me think the security of what they're doing over there is really poor... so I'm not happy adding payment methods etc. when I can't trust that my account is secure

Your worries are understandable but they are anecdotal. I've been using 3 emails over the years (since the 90s) and all of them have a few hits on https://haveibeenpwned.com/. I don't think you've shown Epic is any better or worse than other sites/clients.

Phoenix Point is being self-published by Snapshot, also owned by Gollop, et al. so there's no separate publisher to make the deal and share anything... and Gollop has snuffled up a huge exclusivity payout on top of an already over-funded crowd-funding project, so what I guess all the extra money from that wasn't enough on it's own to enable them to support the game and they need another sack of money? Of course he's going to try and sell that to people as "the best thing for the game"

Julian Gollop has been making games since 1982 and we're not debating Phoenix Point's financials, we're debating whether Epic's deals are good for developers or not. In fact, most developers are not fans of Steam's model: only six percent of the surveyed game developers said that they believe Steam earns its 30 percent cut. Richard Geldreich, former Valve dev, goes even further: Steam was killing PC gaming. It was a 30% tax on an entire industry. It was unsustainable. You have no idea how profitable Steam was for Valve.

With all due respect, I'll take their word over yours on this matter.

 

[uncle_rufus]

Your worries are understandable but they are anecdotal. I've been using 3 emails over the years (since the 90s) and all of them have a few hits on https://haveibeenpwned.com/. I don't think you've shown Epic is any better or worse than other sites/clients.

It may be anecdotal but I'm not the only person reporting their bad security record... plus I don't get your argument... that there are other potentially insecure sites/services out there so it makes it okay to knowingly sign up to and use this one? It's not about email getting hacked - I've got multiple email accounts too and my oldest one (from the 90s) gets plenty of spam... big deal... this is about card information stored on an online service

With all due respect, I'll take their word over yours on this matter.

We weren't debating the financials, no... but we were debating whether the money ends up in developer's hands in all cases, and your example (which you're still not addressing, though I admit that's likely my fault for taking us off-topic ranting about Gollop, that greedy ****) is one where the money obviously will get back to the developer because they self-publish... How much of the extra cash do you think the publisher of Outer Worlds is going to pass on directly to Obsidian devs and their staff? (given that it seems they didn't even tell them they had made the deal until the last minute)

I agree that 30% seems high though, especially for smaller self-publishing developers (bigger publishers have always been able to negotiate much more favourable cuts than that)... but that survey isn't exactly conclusive... the vast majority surveyed gave a wishy washy answer of "ohh I'm not really sure" or "I think they probably do/don't earn their cut" because how do you even answer that question? What is 30% worth? When Valve's service was (and still is) providing something that isn't matched by any other services, how do you put a price on it?

 

[Tombstone]

Your worries are understandable but they are anecdotal. I've been using 3 emails over the years (since the 90s) and all of them have a few hits on https://haveibeenpwned.com/. I don't think you've shown Epic is any better or worse than other sites/clients.

Not seen that site before. Like you I have multiple emails that I use for different things to cover my back ( I have 4 different ones) , out of interest I just popped my main email address into that search and it came back with 7 hits. The most curious thing to me isn't that there are 7 hits, its that 5 of those 7 hits are on websites that I have never even ever visited, let alone put my email address onto. One of them was Myspace for goodness sake, a site I have never in my life been to or had an account on, another was LinkedIn, again, never been to the site nor had an account on it. Yet another was a site called Bitly? Never even heard of that one !

 

[Zethor]

It may be anecdotal but I'm not the only person reporting their bad security record... plus I don't get your argument... that there are other potentially insecure sites/services out there so it makes it okay to knowingly sign up to and use this one? It's not about email getting hacked - I've got multiple email accounts too and my oldest one (from the 90s) gets plenty of spam... big deal... this is about card information stored on an online service

You are grasping at straws, I simply gave an example related to the fact that anecdotal evidence is irrelevant (both yours and mine). What is relevant is the claim that the Epic launcher is less secure than other options so you have to prove that assertion. Can you back up your concerns with proof other than "I think so...", "unnamed others think so..." etc. ?

We weren't debating the financials, no... but we were debating whether the money ends up in developer's hands in all cases, and your example (which you're still not addressing, though I admit that's likely my fault for taking us off-topic ranting about Gollop, that greedy ****) is one where the money obviously will get back to the developer because they self-publish... How much of the extra cash do you think the publisher of Outer Worlds is going to pass on directly to Obsidian devs and their staff? (given that it seems they didn't even tell them they had made the deal until the last minute)

I agree that 30% seems high though, especially for smaller self-publishing developers (bigger publishers have always been able to negotiate much more favourable cuts than that)... but that survey isn't exactly conclusive... the vast majority surveyed gave a wishy washy answer of "ohh I'm not really sure" or "I think they probably do/don't earn their cut" because how do you even answer that question? What is 30% worth? When Valve's service was (and still is) providing something that isn't matched by any other services, how do you put a price on it?

This is what a typical developer/publisher agreement looks like (just an example). As you can see, the royalty is calculated as a percentage out of the game's total net revenue. The 12% Epic takes means more net revenue (compared to Steam's 30%) and thus more money for both publisher and developer.

 

[Omaeka]

Are you absolutely sure it won't be coming to PC?

It's just my gut feeling, there's nothing saying it won't.

 

[uncle_rufus]

You are grasping at straws, I simply gave an example related to the fact that anecdotal evidence is irrelevant (both yours and mine). What is relevant is the claim that the Epic launcher is less secure than other options so you have to prove that assertion. Can you back up your concerns with proof other than "I think so...", "unnamed others think so..." etc. ?

What is relevant to me... is my experience with them as a company, which hasn't made me trust them... I don't understand why you think I need to prove anything beyond that? It doesn't matter to me in the slightest if other people want to say "well there's no concrete proof, just a lot of anecdotal evidence that they have a bad security record"... everyone's appetite for risking their information is different and I'd just rather not (especially when the "benefit" I get in return is simply playing a game a bit earlier than I might have otherwise)

This is what a typical developer/publisher agreement looks like (just an example). As you can see, the royalty is calculated as a percentage out of the game's total net revenue. The 12% Epic takes means more net revenue (compared to Steam's 30%) and thus more money for both publisher and developer.

I'm struggling to find the part that explains about how any money made via direct exclusivity deals between Epic and the publisher translates to anything going to the developer? Does a big Epic bag of cash paid to the publisher for exclusivity count as "revenue" or would a savvy publisher find a way to write it off as something else so that they aren't obliged to pay any of it to the developer? Yes, yes I know neither of us can probably prove it either way, but my point is just that these things aren't as black and white as people try to make out (well, unless they have an agenda or it's convenient to them for people to think it's that simple)

 

[TNA]

Tut tut. I for one am never going to buy from their store, even if Borderlands 3 is exclusive to it.

Hear hear.

 

[Cosmic Schwung]

It's just my gut feeling, there's nothing saying it won't.

I guess anything could happen, but GTAV has sold over 10 million copies on steam alone. Obviously it isn't going to get those numbers, but they'd be crazy to pass up the pc audience again.

Edit: looking up player distribution of GTAV, and unless Epic pay out an obscene amount of cash for the exclusivity, or sort out China access to EGS, I can't see RDR2 going exclusive.

 

[Minusorange]

Edit: looking up player distribution of GTAV, and unless Epic pay out an obscene amount of cash for the exclusivity, or sort out China access to EGS, I can't see RDR2 going exclusive.

Is that graph including piracy ? I don't see how you can have more players than owners when you need to own it to play it ?

 

[Cosmic Schwung]

Is that graph including piracy ? I don't see how you can have more players than owners when you need to own it to play it ?

The graph is showing percentages, not actual numbers of players and owners. When this graph was made at the beginning of 2018, China accounted for 18.08% of all copies of GTAV bought on steam, and 20.86% of current players.

 

[chrcoluk]

This twitter thread was linked to in the latest Jim Sterling video on the Epic store:

https://twitter.com/CaseyExplosion/status/1113436371610492929

It is worth a read.

However,the Epic CEO a few years ago attacked Microsoft when they wanted to open their own store,and accused them of pushing exclusivity to block the competition,and that everyone should fight this. Fast forward a few years,and his tune has changed:

https://www.thegamer.com/epic-boss-says-developers-win-game-store-wars-not-consumers/



<snip to keep quote down>

Indeed its very concerning, its like some kind of hatred from dev's to consumers and they see this as payback.

Also all these articles promoting epic keep using the word developers, when its the publishers who decide (and the publishers who keep the extra money).

I remember a company I worked for, their budget for advertising in their war with a competitor was astounding, but the budget for other things like maintenance of their systems and dev work suffered for it, we would argue over payments of £50 or less whilst they funding 7 figure cost tv adverts. I dont see how the consumers win from this to be honest. Epic's end game is to have a monopoly on certain titles and the fortnite ATM wont be around forever to subsidise it.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Indeed its very concerning, its like some kind of hatred from dev's to consumers and they see this as payback.

Also all these articles promoting epic keep using the word developers, when its the publishers who decide (and the publishers who keep the extra money).

I remember a company I worked for, their budget for advertising in their war with a competitor was astounding, but the budget for other things like maintenance of their systems and dev work suffered for it, we would argue over payments of £50 or less whilst they funding 7 figure cost tv adverts. I dont see how the consumers win from this to be honest. Epic's end game is to have a monopoly on certain titles and the fortnite ATM wont be around forever to subsidise it.

Agreed, but lets go even further for all the people defending the CEO of Epic,by looking at the Guardian article I posted earlier.

With its new Universal Windows Platform (UWP) initiative, Microsoft has built a closed platform-within-a-platform into Windows 10, as the first apparent step towards locking down the consumer PC ecosystem and monopolising app distribution and commerce.
.........
They’re curtailing users’ freedom to install full-featured PC software, and subverting the rights of developers and publishers to maintain a direct relationship with their customers.
............
Valve’s Steam distribution service is booming with over 100m users, and publishers like Adobe, Autodesk, Blizzard, Riot Games and EA are operating highly successful businesses selling their games and content directly to consumers.
...............
But the good PC stuff isn’t there, with the exception of Microsoft’s own software products. Does Microsoft really think that independent PC developers and publishers, who cherish their freedom and their direct customer relationships, are going to sign up for this current UWP fiasco?
..................

Why We Fight
As the founder of a major Windows game developer and technology supplier, this is an op-ed I hoped I would never feel compelled to write. But Epic has prided itself on providing software directly to customers ever since I started mailing floppy disks in 1991. We wouldn’t let Microsoft close down the PC platform overnight without a fight, and therefore we won’t sit silently by while Microsoft embarks on a series of sneaky manoeuvres aimed at achieving this over a period of several years.
.................
Microsoft’s intentions must be judged by Microsoft’s actions, not Microsoft’s words. Their actions speak plainly enough: they are working to turn today’s open PC ecosystem into a closed, Microsoft-controlled distribution and commerce monopoly, over time, in a series of steps of which we’re seeing the very first. Unless Microsoft changes course, all of the independent companies comprising the PC ecosystem have a decision to make: to oppose this, or cede control of their existing customer relationships and commerce to Microsoft’s exclusive control.

Tim Sweeney, the founder of Epic Games, has declared that Epic Games will win the battle for best digital storefront based on its relationship with developers, not with customers.

The Epic CEO himself was going to newspapers like the Guardian under 3 years ago as a "consumer champion" just because Microsoft was setting up their own store and he accused them of trying to "curtailing users’ freedom to install full-featured PC software" and where was all the "competition was good" back then here?

Now a few years later,he has basically said consumer choice won't determine who uses what service,people LIKE HIM will decide it.

So that means he wants Epic Store to win over Steam,GOG,Origin,UPlay,Window store,Desura,etc.

A few years previously he was moaning that Microsoft would start selling games,and "be the only store" and that would be bad for PC gaming. Now he is saying he wants his store to win over everything else with consumers not being involved.

If he has an attitude like that he can do one.

Consumers will decide who wins the game store wars,and whether there is more than one,not the CEO of some games company,backed by Tencent,the same company deeply involved in the social credit system in China.

 

[chrcoluk]

What the Epic CEO has forgotten is consumers can choose to torrent the game instead or even avoid it altogether.

I can forsee a rebellion coming here and a rampant rise in piracy.

I have already emailed some CEO's of publishers of games I buy to tell them if they go epic exclusive I will not be buying anymore of their products.

 

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

What the Epic CEO has forgotten is consumers can choose to torrent the game instead or even avoid it altogether.

I can forsee a rebellion coming here and a rampant rise in piracy.

Well one Epic fail(LOL) is that the store is not available in China(and Steam is),and Epic store regional pricing is not as well developed as competing stores,so in a number of countries pricing is significantly higher.

 

[Tombstone]

What the Epic CEO has forgotten is consumers can choose to torrent the game instead or even avoid it altogether.

I can forsee a rebellion coming here and a rampant rise in piracy.

I have already emailed some CEO's of publishers of games I buy to tell them if they go epic exclusive I will not be buying anymore of their products.

Only people lacking in their own morals will pirate, in which event simply proves them to be hypocrites. I would hope that anyone wanting to truly make a point would just boycott buying it and not play it rather than pirate it.