European Grand Prix 2010, Valencia Street Circuit - Race 9/19

[sunama]

You also have to look at how things went last season. McLaren have a great track record of development through the season and I wouldn't be suprised if they are at least as fast as RBR by the last quarter. Not capitalising on their early supremacy will be very costly IMO.

Good point.

Plus I just don't rate Vettel that highly. He's fast from the front but not able to make something out of nothing in the way that Hamilton/Button/Alonso are, and that's a skill that's crucial in closely contested seasons.

Providing RBR can continue giving Vettel a car advantage and we dont have rain or extraordinary incidents, there is no reason for Vettel to get mixed up with overtaking - he can continue doing his 'lights to victory' thing.

It all depends on whether or not RBR can maintain their car advantage. Would you bet against them?

 

[Glaucus]

Go
It all depends on whether or not RBR can maintain their car advantage. Would you bet against them?

I certainly would, what won Brawn GP the contest last year, was capitalising early on and making just enough points in teh second half to survive.

RBR does not have that lead, does not have the reliability and are supporting a fast but unstable driver.
McLaren on the other hand have 2 of the best drivers, one is the fastest and the other is one of the top strategic callers and looks at a race as a race, not a single lap.
Couple that with McLarens ability to develop and RBR is screwed.
Even if they maintain there pace advantage it has not done them much good in teh first half of teh season, why do you think that will suddenly change?
I'm not saying they will go to pot, it will be close but I see McLaren overall extending there lead, although I'm sure that the constructors and driver standings will have a few changes before teh end of teh season.

 

[sunama]

... there is no chance webber will move over.

We'll just have to wait and see.

There is no room for mavericks in F1, unless they really are the best of the best or are highly valued by their teams.

Alonso, Hamilton, Kubica, Button could all tell their teams to get lost if asked to move over. This is because they are valued by their teams. If RBR want to replace Webber, there will be a queue of drivers who will be happy to take his place and step into the best car in F1.

For the record, I cannot remember the last time I heard of a driver failing to follow team-orders...I actually can't think of any occassions where this has happened. Turkey 2010 would've been the first (to my memory), however, since then, it transpired that the message for Webber to move over, was not transmitted to him.

As I said, Webber is not a petulant youngster - he is a mature man who will consider his decisions, before acting on them. Disregarding the orders of your boss will carry a very serious penalty.

 

[Glaucus]

For the record, I cannot remember the last time I head of a driver failing to follow team-orders...I actually can't think of any occassions where this has happened. Turkey 2010 would've been the first (to my memory), however, since then, it transpired that the message for Webber to move over, was not transmitted to him.
.

that's because you never hear team orders as they are illegal, so you have no idea eitehr way what is a team order and what is not, as well as if it was followed or not.

And webber could easily move to another team.

Turkey 2010 would've been the first (to my memory), however, since then, it transpired that the message for Webber to move over, was not transmitted to him.

You keep saying that but it is total speculation. If there was any evidence then FIA would have been on the issue and fining RBR.

 

[FrankJH]

Providing RBR can continue giving Vettel a car advantage and we dont have rain or extraordinary incidents, there is no reason for Vettel to get mixed up with overtaking - he can continue doing his 'lights to victory' thing.

It all depends on whether or not RBR can maintain their car advantage. Would you bet against them?

Both Ferrari and McLaren (from the times each car posted) are a match on race day at the very least, and McLaren are supposed to have a big update for the next race - not just the new exhaust.

By no means can it be presumed that any team will have an advantage for long (1 - 2 races max I would have thought, esp given the summer "break" coming up)

 

[Mr Jack]

You keep saying that but it is total speculation.

It's sunama, you didn't expect even a passing attempt at separating fact from fantasy, did you?

 

[PinkFloyd]

From here on in though, Webber knows his place

Here's hoping Webber takes Vettel off the track, imo Vettel should have to win on Merit!
Hope Webber wipes the smerk off of Vettels face a fair few more times this year!

 

[sunama]

that's because you never hear team orders as they are illegal, so you have no idea eitehr way what is a team order and what is not, as well as if it was followed or not.

I have seen team orders in action this year. It happened between the Williams team. The drivers swapped places nice and cleanly. I can't remember which race it was though.

There are many occassions where I have seen team orders in action. Sometimes, the strategy is manipulated in favour of 1 driver, over the other, to give their preferred driver the advantage. It is done subtley so as not to draw attention. Obviously the days when 1 driver would come to a virtual standstill to allow his team mate past are gone.

And webber could easily move to another team.

Which team would that be then?

You keep saying that but it is total speculation. If there was any evidence then FIA would have been on the issue and fining RBR.

The evidence was clear.

It was widely reported that Webber's engineer was told by his boss to instruct Vettel to go past.
The engineer failed to pass this message on.
Meanwhile Vettel had been told that Webber would let him through.
Vettel then went passed Webber, fully expecting Webber's co-operation.
When Webber then began to defend position, while Vettel was alongside, Vettel got the shock of his life and an accident ensued.
When Vettel got out of the car he p'd off. The reason was that he was told that Webber would be letting him passed, but instead Webber was not letting him pass. This was the reason why Vettel was so incensed and angry.

Meanwhile Horner and his bosses were also not liking Webber for what he did, ie. he didnt follow team orders.

Later on it was revealed that the problem was not Webber, it was his engineer who failed to pass on the team-order.

There were team orders. This has been documented. The fact that the FIA are not doing anything about it...ask them why not.

In the same race McLaren had also issued a team order, but we won't go into that, unless you want me to

Once again though, the FIA have chosen not to investigate.

 

[sunama]

Here's hoping Webber takes Vettel off the track, imo Vettel should have to win on Merit!
Hope Webber wipes the smerk off of Vettels face a fair few more times this year!

It would be very interesting if RBR managed to get another 1-2, this time with Webber in 1st place. I wonder how RBR would respond. Somehow though, I just cant that happening.

Since Turkey (accident), Vettel has outperformed Webber - I'm not sure if this is just a coincidence or those results have been engineered by the team.

 

[Fanatic]

The engineer failed to pass this message on.

Meanwhile Horner and his bosses were also not liking Webber for what he did, ie. he didnt follow team orders.

Then they are idiots.

 

[deuse]

Since Turkey (accident), Vettel has outperformed Webber - I'm not sure if this is just a coincidence or those results have been engineered by the team.

I think they are starting to be engineered by the team.
Take Canada Webber was 10secs in the lead and if they would have brought him in he would off finished 4th.

But they chose not to and let vettel take the 4th place. Webber finished 2 secs behind vettle in the end.

 

[sunama]

Then they are idiots.

But at the time the bosses were blaiming Webber, they didn't know that the message had not been passed and felt that it was Webber who decided to ignore team orders.

Of course, later it emerged that it ws not Webber who disobeyed team orders, but his engineer.

 

[sunama]

BTW, does anybody know why Webber was so poor in Valencia?

While Vettel was leading the race, Webber was losing places left right and centre.

 

[sunama]

I think they are starting to be engineered by the team.

I think so too, but its only been 2 races, so its too early to call it a pattern.

If for the rest of the season, Webber never finishes ahead of Vettel, then we definitely know that something is up.

 

[Fanatic]

BTW, does anybody know why Webber was so poor in Valencia?

While Vettel was leading the race, Webber was losing places left right and centre.

He had a very poor start and after that it is difficult to recover I would imagine. Then trying too hard to recover, and making more mistakes.

I don't think Vettel will have it all his own way in terms of beating his team mate, I think Webber is still just as good.

 

[sunama]

He had a very poor start and after that it is difficult to recover I would imagine. Then trying too hard to recover, and making more mistakes.

He did have a poor start, but after the first few corners, he was getting overtaken by lots of cars - it wasnt just on the first 2 or 3 corners.

I don't think Vettel will have it all his own way in terms of beating his team mate, I think Webber is still just as good.

Webber has definitely raised his game this year.

 

[FrankJH]

I would have thought that 1st two or three corners practically gauranteed Webber's very early pit stop that bought him out behind Kovy.....

thats perception 4 days after the race rather than anything analysed though - plus he had one or two collisions during the first 2 or 3 corners which could well have damaged his car (and given RB's "pro" action towards Vettel, they would be more inclined to "hide" reports of issues with Webber's car in the first place)

Thats becoming really synical towards F1 isnt it

 

[arknor]

tinfoil hats for sunmama and frankjh please.

isnt all radio traffic monitored anyway? we only hear what the teams want us to while the fia hear everything

 

[Duke]

Race edit is up

http://www.formula1.com/video/race_edits.html

 

[PinkFloyd]

Quite a knock that Webber took on that first lap! (although kinda dwarfed by the one later one )