EV general discussion

Simon said:
I never mentioned dinosaurs. What is stupid is you jumping over me. When I simply replied to someone’s else’s silly comment about diesel and petrol not being recyclable. All plastic is recyclable yet only 9% is actually recycle globally. Just because something is recyclable doesn’t mean it is recycled. I still really struggle to see the business case for a company to start ‘recycling’ batteries. Aka grinding them up and getting them back to elements to use in anything again. But maybe I didn’t use Google enough for you to enable you to see my point as valid? Like somehow how many Google search’s you do makes your view (aka parrot repeat someone else’s) more reliable ?

Or are you talking about something else and somehow applying it to a battery being recycled ?? Or just taking an opportunity to fire shots cause you got upset in another part of the is forum?

Not interesting to you? Yet you have remembered sometime for over a month, interesting. Feel sorry for those who hold grudges, must be a sad world. Also interesting you didn’t really have a point to make here


PS I have and EV and ICE. It provides the ability to not have some rose tinted view.
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Dinosaurs is "tongue in cheek"

You asked me to look it up for you. Nope I'm not doing it for you.

I just replied to the thread, if it's old that's because to make sense of something quoted out of sequence you have to find the original comment. Only to realise it never made sense.

Not entirely sure why recycling = grinding. If I recycle an old computer, I don't grind it up.
 
CaneyJ said:
EV batteries are a bit different from the buckets of old AA you see in supermarkets.

People consider an EV battery dead once it's reached about 70% of it's original capacity but even then they usually aren't recycled but repurposed into static storage use.

The older 2011-2 leaf cells even at just 40% are still being used for backup UPS and house storage options and so there isn't yet a strong need to actually shred these original batteries down just yet.

As for market progression it's simple numbers. The combined Chinese and European market will out-prioritise the US.

The developing world is a mix. Brazil will resist due to it's ability to produce ethanol domestically as are the Japanese who are still clinging to hydrogen.

I would see a need for India to go to EV sooner rather than later due to the amount of city pollution that triggered China's change but power generation and distribution will be their issue.

Americans are often conservative in their mindest so it's often stubborness in their part but they will come around eventually.
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I see diesel is banned in parts of India. Bit late to the party.
 
That’s not really recycling is it. That’s repurposing. Even musk who said plastic recycling is pointless has said the best way to recycle a battery is grind it up for the metals. You aren’t reusing a knackered cell.

Recycling is using old clothes to make car seats. Or meleting glass bottles to make new ones
 
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OspreyO said:
Dinosaurs is "tongue in cheek"

You asked me to look it up for you. Nope I'm not doing it for you.

I just replied to the thread, if it's old that's because to make sense of something quoted out of sequence you have to find the original comment. Only to realise it never made sense.

Not entirely sure why recycling = grinding. If I recycle an old computer, I don't grind it up.
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oil isn’t dinosaurs anymore than it was a Wolly mammoth or a caveman. It’s plants.

What did I ask you to look up?
 
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Because they don't need to be recycled they are still useful.

We've not reached that point yet.

When LIFEPO4 becomes more popular that will be even less of an issue as they last 5 times longer than Cobalt and Manganese types.
 
CaneyJ said:
Because they don't need to be recycled they are still useful.

We've not reached that point yet.

When LIFEPO4 becomes more popular that will be even less of an issue as they last 5 times longer than Cobalt and Manganese types.
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Yeh indeed that’s repurposing. Apparently a battery is 98% recycled according to the post I replied to. I don’t know why this seems so hard to understand. Also a knackered cell will never be repurposed to get any value. It will have to be recycled. You can’t un grow a dendrite or un plate lithium.
 
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Simon said:
That’s not really recycling is it. That’s repurposing. Even musk who said plastic recycling is pointless has said the best way to recycle a battery is grind it up for the metals. You aren’t reusing a knackered cell
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Ah musk he just keeps on giving....

"...adoption of a “closed-loop” process that would allow it to keep 100 percent of its batteries, which typically last around a decade, out of the landfill: “None of our scrapped lithium-ion batteries go to landfills and 100 percent are recycled,” the report reads. “We actively implement circular economy principles.” ....
 
OspreyO said:
Ah musk he just keeps on giving....

"...adoption of a “closed-loop” process that would allow it to keep 100 percent of its batteries, which typically last around a decade, out of the landfill: “None of our scrapped lithium-ion batteries go to landfills and 100 percent are recycled,” the report reads. “We actively implement circular economy principles.” ....
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They just rebuild a pack from mixing old packs with good cells. Nothing about where the knackered cells go. The guy hates plastic recycling and build cars to dispose of rather than repair if crashed

Only think worth getting out of a battery is the nickel and colbalt anyway. No value in the rest
 
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Simon said:
oil isn’t dinosaurs anymore than it was a Wolly mammoth or a caveman. It’s plants.

What did I ask you to look up?
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Can you let us know when "tongue in cheek" means what is meant to mean or your going to take it literally because you seem to flip flop on that from one post to the next.

I'm not sure the few thousand years difference between plants or Barney really makes any difference to driving 100 miles to a charger argument.
 
Simon said:
They just rebuild a pack from mixing old packs with good cells. Nothing about where the knackered cells go. The guy hates plastic recycling and build cars to dispose of rather than repair if crashed

Only think worth getting out of a battery is the nickel and colbalt anyway. No value in the rest
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I really doubt he builds them himself.
 
CaneyJ said:
EV batteries are a bit different from the buckets of old AA you see in supermarkets.

People consider an EV battery dead once it's reached about 70% of it's original capacity but even then they usually aren't recycled but repurposed into static storage use.

The older 2011-2 leaf cells even at just 40% are still being used for backup UPS and house storage options and so there isn't yet a strong need to actually shred these original batteries down just yet.

As for market progression it's simple numbers. The combined Chinese and European market will out-prioritise the US.

The developing world is a mix. Brazil will resist due to it's ability to produce ethanol domestically as are the Japanese who are still clinging to hydrogen.

I would see a need for India to go to EV sooner rather than later due to the amount of city pollution that triggered China's change but power generation and distribution will be their issue.

Americans are often conservative in their mindest so it's often stubborness in their part but they will come around eventually.
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Chinese car industry is heavily subsidized by the State. All bets are off as to how that effects European car manufacturers going forward.
 
So what if it is.

There's no rules in capitalism that says you can't manufacture at a loss for a while to bankrupt the competition then roll over them.

If the German government cared that much they'd do the same but they don't have access to the lithium.

Americans do have lithium and also maybe the capability but the government it fickle and delaying things.
 
CaneyJ said:
So what if it is.

There's no rules in capitalism that says you can't manufacture at a loss for a while to bankrupt the competition then roll over them.

If the German government cared that much they'd do the same but they don't have access to the lithium.

Americans do have lithium and also maybe the capability but the government it fickle and delaying things.
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The so what is that it becomes state economy against state economy. Why would you cripple your economy to boost someone else's. That's essentially Trumps angle on it. China economy is reliant on its exports. It's had a few wobble and it's desperate to move to be less dependent on export income. Germany has to be looking at Russian energy and it's car industry as issue for the state not simply the car manufacturers.

There's lots got on here far beyond getting a cheaper EV.

Europe has lithium. If it decides to mine it.

www.powtech-technopharm.com

Update: Lithium from Europe: hurdles and successes

A lot has happened in lithium extraction in the past year, and fortunately mainly in Europe. This is also urgently needed if we want to become less dependent on South America, Australia and China when it comes to battery production. Especially as extraction from the largest European deposits is...
www.powtech-technopharm.com www.powtech-technopharm.com
 
rodenal said:
There's little "need" in terms of the jump at the moment if it doesn't suit you.

Cars like the e 208/2008/corsa are worth looking at like it sounds you already have as they seem to be approaching a point you could almost consider reasonable in price for a circa 4/5 year old car.

Id worry more about battery if you're inclined to keep the car forever than if you tend to work in 3 year or so cycles with the cars (most reputable dealers will give you a battery report anyway), albeit I'd probably write off the majority of the purchase price given how quickly the tech and people's view on "older EVs" could shift
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I'm not into the whole buy a new car every 3 years thing, I usually keep cars for as long as is practical really, I've only ever changed a car because I need something else. One of our cars we've had for 12 years now, the other car I replaced 2 years ago (with a Kia which I'm not impressed with tbh) but had the previous car 7 years only replacing due to age.

Electric appeals to me as the wife has just changed Jobs and now only works 2 miles down the road. In the summer she plans to cycle but in the winter it's not practical so she has to drive.
 
sx_turbo said:
I'm not into the whole buy a new car every 3 years thing, I usually keep cars for as long as is practical really, I've only ever changed a car because I need something else. One of our cars we've had for 12 years now, the other car I replaced 2 years ago (with a Kia which I'm not impressed with tbh) but had the previous car 7 years only replacing due to age.

Electric appeals to me as the wife has just changed Jobs and now only works 2 miles down the road. In the summer she plans to cycle but in the winter it's not practical so she has to drive.
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I did something similar.

But consider if you ever plan on longer trips, even if once a year, faster charging will be a major advantage, as will a larger battery.

Not so much just for range but if you end up somewhere with limited charging being able to do a faster DC top-up is handier

We did a long trip this Winter at freezing temps with our small battery EV which we bought primarily for frequent local short trips. Didn't really take much longer.

Only there were no convenient AC overnight charging at the destination. Which meant we had to top up on DC charger starting back with 85% rather than 100% which resulted in an extra (just in case) stop on the way back. Couldn't leave it on the DC chargers overnight due to overstay fees.

That said most newish EVs have decent charging speeds now.
 
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Simon said:
Im talking about the comparable curve. Just don’t get how people can talk about fuel savings then ignore rate of depreciation. £18k to save £40 a month doesn’t really add up
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Well I paid £18,000 for mine with 3 services and AA Cover thrown in and this is how much they are now for a 23 Reg.

New & Used Cars for Sale - Auto Trader UK

www.autotrader.co.uk www.autotrader.co.uk

There is a low mileage one on there from the place I bought mine for £21,000.

Auto Trader UK - New and Used Cars For Sale

Find your next car with Auto Trader UK, the official #1 site to buy and sell new and used cars. Over 400,000 cars online. Simple, easy, quick!
www.autotrader.co.uk www.autotrader.co.uk
 
OspreyO said:
I did something similar.

But consider if you ever plan on longer trips, even if once a year, faster charging will be a major advantage, as will a larger battery.

Not so much just for range but if you end up somewhere with limited charging being able to do a faster DC top-up is handier

We did a long trip this Winter at freezing temps with our small battery EV which we bought primarily for frequent local short trips. Didn't really take much longer.

Only there were no convenient AC overnight charging at the destination. Which meant we had to top up on DC charger starting back with 85% rather than 100% which resulted in an extra (just in case) stop on the way back. Couldn't leave it on the DC chargers overnight due to overstay fees.

That said most newish EVs have decent charging speeds now.
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The plan would be the electric car to be the run around for the missus, and then the family car for me to get to and from work (I do 40 miles a day so makes sense for me to take the ice car as it will get a proper heat cycle and run) and be the one we use to go on holiday, days out etc.

Personally for me electric cars for long journeys would provide me with too much stress, even if they say they can now do 400 miles to a charge, imo the charging infrastructure isn't there, and with young family sitting at a charging station for an hour or so I imagine to be a pain.

I know lots of people do seem to manage long journeys, the cheap end of the ev market all seems to have moon mileages, so they absolutely can work, I'm just not sure it's for me at the moment.

As a town run about though, absolutely ideal.
 
Comparing EV to ICE depreciation is only comparable in that they are both cars. The curve will drop faster on an EV but will have a higher floor due to the battery always beating worth something.
 
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