EV general discussion

[OspreyO]

I don’t get your analogies you mean, Riding a bike is like charging a car. Wot.

Live data is only via 3rd party API or OBD2 dongles on ARBP. Suggest you do some reading like you were championing earlier.

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How’s that 100kWh charger? Haven’t even realised yet have you

Gallon into a pint pot.

I have the live data in ABRP with the appropriate dongle. It's great, extremely accurate.

 

[Simon]

For someone without an EV it's a useful tool to check different EVs and Journeys. And forum fud.

As you say something similar is built into most new EVs. But even there you can plan your next EV. Or plan journeys while your in the coffee shop.

Sounds incredibly tedious for someone new to EV coming from a car they don’t even have to think about filling up.

Here’s an idea. Picking an EV cause it drives well. Using ABRP to help chose an EV is actually comical. The fact you think it’s a good idea highlights you have very little understanding of them

 

[Simon]

Gallon into a pint pot.

I have the live data in ABRP with the appropriate dongle. It's great, extremely accurate.

Brilliant. You didn’t say ABRP with a dongle to those people you were singing its virtues to. Would have helped to say you need the dongle and app no ?

So with SOH of your specific car via said dongle, I will you that it’s more accurate than other methods. It’s almost like it’s talking to the car…

 

[OspreyO]

You are both adding things on top of what I am actually saying and I understand enough about the different usage impact on range to have some idea when the impact is likely within expected for that, etc.

I've never seen a more misleading metric than a GOM. I understand it's much more accurate in Tesla's. I guess it varies across EVs.

 

[jpaul]

nonetheless if you've had a 2nd hand ev car for a while (within your 3 mth warranty) and shown it is getting the kind of range you'd expect under normal wltp type driving conditions
what are the odd it's previous owner maltreated it (supercharging / draining to 0 / filling to 100) and it will suddenly non-linearly degrade.

the 330e battery module problem I'd linked in other thread symptoms were evident erratic loss of range between periods of use, as the car had time to correctly evaluate the cell voltages
(whilst not under load - look up the tesla vampire resistors purpose)

 

[OspreyO]

Brilliant. You didn’t say ABRP with a dongle to those people you were singing its virtues to. Would have helped to say you need the dongle and app no ?

So with SOH of your specific car via said dongle, I will you that it’s more accurate than other methods. It’s almost like it’s talking to the car…

No because you don't use "live data" when planning a trip or testing a route against potential EVs. That should be obvious.

Might be useful to someone without an EV to know how technology to helps with charging anxiety.

 

[OspreyO]

Sounds incredibly tedious for someone new to EV coming from a car they don’t even have to think about filling up.

Here’s an idea. Picking an EV cause it drives well. Using ABRP to help chose an EV is actually comical. The fact you think it’s a good idea highlights you have very little understanding of them

Technophobes should perhaps just buy a diesel and perhaps stop lurking on EV forums.

 

[OspreyO]

Yes, that's implied by what I wrote, that it would cause me stress. It would be in my own head, and I acknowledged that lots of people do obviously manage it.

New stuff often has a learning curve that takes you out of your comfort zone. Sometimes you just want don't to. That's also ok. People can buy an Petrol or diesel.

 

[CaptainRAVE]

Our local EV company got back to me. Will hopefully arrange a quote soon, will then get a pod fitted over Easter. Zappi or hypervolt I think.

 

[Rroff]

New stuff often has a learning curve that takes you out of your comfort zone. Sometimes you just want don't to. That's also ok. People can buy an Petrol or diesel.

It can be difficult to get over that initial hump with EVs - but the state of the charging network just doesn't help in that respect - the local ones at the moment are a mess of either ridiculously expensive, having technical issues or having been vandalised. We seem really backwards as a country in getting ahead on things like this so that people who are interested have a reassuring experience.

 

[ICDP]

Why does the local chargers matter to you if you charge at home? I haven’t used a public charger since last summer. It was perfectly fine and hassle free and here in N. Ireland the public charging network is woefully behind the rest of the UK. If I were to think back at all the times I public charged, I would say 1 in 20 gave me problems and even then I was not left stranded with a dead EV.

Is this another one of those lists of imaginary things why people can’t move to EVs? Then you find out they have a driveway, do less than 15, 000 miles a year (95% of them commute) and maybe do longer distances trips twice a year at most?

We’ve debunked the myth that the GoM is a good indicator of battery health. We’ve moved on to “the state of public chargers round our way”.

Do you have any more of the anti EV bingo myths you need me to tackle for you? Save everyone a lot of time? Let me get some answers for the more typical stuff.

- No, my EV won’t electrocute me if I use it in the rain.

- About 20 seconds… 10 seconds to plug it in at night and another 10 seconds to unplug it in the morning

- Yes an EV can tow a caravan

- No my EV won’t run out of charge in a traffic jam in the dead of winter

- No my EV won’t set fire to my house

- No my EV is not going to cause a multi story car park to collapse

My apologies if this seems confrontational and if you are genuinely asking out of interest I apologise. But the point stand re your local public chargers, why would it matter if you have a home charger. The very rare occasions most people need an expensive public rapid charger, is offset by very cheap motoring the rest of the time. For the most part such trips still work out cheaper, or similar costs to an ICE.

 

[Rroff]

Why does the local chargers matter to you if you charge at home?

This is about reassuring people who may be considering moving to EVs for longer distant travel... if the local situation isn't good, and I've seen reports as well like the recently mentioned theft of the charging cables for copper, etc. it doesn't help people who might be struggling to move out of their comfort zone into an EV.

Do you have any more of the anti EV bingo myths you need me to tackle for you?

Completely imagining where I'm coming from - I'm not anti EV.

We’ve debunked the myth that the GoM is a good indicator of battery health. We’ve moved on to “the state of public chargers round our way”.

I never claimed GoM is a good indicator of battery health...

This is a completely different topic picking up from something else in the thread.

Try to actually read and comprehend my posts rather than just replying to a load of imaginary things you think I'm saying...

EDIT: On a personal note I can't see me moving my main vehicles to an EV any time soon, living in a relatively remote rural area as far as it goes down here I like the idea of having an EV backup, though there hasn't been fuel shortages in awhile but it is nice not being entirely dependant on fuel availability, but EVs are a long way from being a viable replacement for my main usages but have been toying with the idea of a backup EV van combining multiple ancillary purposes and/or a cheap backup Leaf but nothing is really ticking the boxes right now (hence why I was looking at the Townstars - but even for backup usage I need something which can do at least the 180 miles real world range under real world conditions with a moderate load).

 

[ICDP]

You really did try to say the GoM was a fair indicator of SoH. It isn’t.

Yet in my experience it is often pretty indicative - you don't really get poor state batteries showing good range, and more often than not if it is showing poor range a good chance the battery has seen better days.

Some you can get it up on screen, others I'm just kind of guessing from estimated range at the current charge percentage which obviously isn't the most accurate but generally gives an idea.

I'm in there all the time (unfortunately)/regular customer so they are happy to let me have a play.

Also EV owners on long distance trips tend to use rapid charging hubs or destination chargers in hotels etc. and they tend to be well maintained. My point still stands, you can’t use the state of your local public chargers as indicative of the rest of the country.

You are using questionable at best and invalid at worst methods and metrics to determine the suitability of EVs.

 

[Rroff]

You really did try to say the GoM was a fair indicator of SoH. It isn’t.

Yes I said it can be indicative, I didn't say it was a good indicator, glad we are narrowing it down a bit to what I actually said rather than your hyperbolic embellishment of what I actually said.

Something I forgot to mention in context though, largely because of other people jumping on my posts misunderstanding what I was saying, is that I find it "pretty indicative" when (as I was) looking at vehicles for sale and also have other information like the selling price to hand and bemoaning that the situation when it comes to determining the actual battery health isn't straightforward with dealers often trying to obscure it when it isn't good.

i.e. when you've got a 2021 car on 14K miles, no obvious issue, and it is listed 25% down on the normal going rate and sitting at 60% charge with poor estimated range there is probably a good chance that battery has suffered above normal degradation, rather than the range being down due to recent usage conditions.

 

[ICDP]

But it isn’t remotely indicative, it’s not a case of arguing semantics over good or fair. It just isn’t.

On both my EVs I could have GoM variance of up to 30% on consecutive days. I can take a sedate 100 mile scenic trip and the GoM is reporting 275 miles total range. The next day I take a long motorway trip in the rain and my 100% “range” is 200 miles.

If you don’t know how an EV has been driven and on what roads and weather, you will have zero idea of SoH for reading a GoM.

You could take one of those vans you have access to and use it to do deliveries around the local town and it will tell you it has 150 miles potential range. The next day you use the van to do a delivery 50 miles up a motorway and back and you might have to use one of those vandalised local public chargers you’re going on about, because it will be lucky giving maybe 100 miles of range.

That doesn’t mean the battery SoH has degraded 33% overnight. Now can you see how a GoM is utterly useless to determine battery state of health.

 

[OspreyO]

I was just curious how SOH was communicated in a garage. My take way from this was that it wasn't..

 

[ICDP]

You would need to ask for a detailed SoH check to get an even remotely accurate reading.

The variance on a GoM is massive and is dependent on so many external variables that it is useless to determine battery SoH (not slightly, or ball park, or indicative, just totally useless). You could be out by a magnitude far greater than what would be considered acceptable variance. Think double digit percentage points out.

To put it in to perspective. Most EVs might have typical battery degradation of 3 - 5% in 5 years. On my EVs 3 - 5% is about 10 miles of range lost. I can get the same loss by just turning on the AC. Any actual degradation on a battery would be lost in the noise of what a GoM gives as an estimated range, based on previous driving styles and conditions.

You could drive to 0% until the EV literally dies, then charge to 100% and calculate the energy added. Then drive to 0 again and calculate the range, energy used and the efficiency to determine net battery capacity after charging efficiency loss. But even that depends on the OAT and other factors and is of course very time consuming. Or to put it simply, not very accurate and could still be out by a few percent.

In short… a detailed battery SoH check is quicker and the most accurate method when looking at used EVs. Always ask for a SoH check and ask for a hard copy.

 

[chanjy]

You would need to ask for a detailed SoH check to get an even remotely accurate reading.

The variance on a GoM is massive and is dependent on so many external variables that it is useless to determine battery SoH (not slightly, or ball park, or indicative, just totally useless). You could be out by a magnitude far greater than what would be considered acceptable variance. Think double digit percentage points out.

To put it in to perspective. Most EVs might have typical battery degradation of 3 - 5% in 5 years. On my EVs 3 - 5% is about 10 miles of range lost. I can get the same loss by just turning on the AC. Any actual degradation on a battery would be lost in the noise of what a GoM gives as an estimated range, based on previous driving styles and conditions.

You could drive to 0% until the EV literally dies, then charge to 100% and calculate the energy added. Then drive to 0 again and calculate the range, energy used and the efficiency to determine net battery capacity after charging efficiency loss. But even that depends on the OAT and other factors and is of course very time consuming. Or to put it simply, not very accurate and could still be out by a few percent.

In short… a detailed battery SoH check is quicker and the most accurate method when looking at used EVs. Always ask for a SoH check and ask for a hard copy.

We've spent about 5 pages debunking the GoM vs battery health haha can't believe we still have to keep going

 

[Penfold101]

You would need to ask for a detailed SoH check to get an even remotely accurate reading.

The variance on a GoM is massive and is dependent on so many external variables that it is useless to determine battery SoH (not slightly, or ball park, or indicative, just totally useless). You could be out by a magnitude far greater than what would be considered acceptable variance. Think double digit percentage points out.

To put it in to perspective. Most EVs might have typical battery degradation of 3 - 5% in 5 years. On my EVs 3 - 5% is about 10 miles of range lost. I can get the same loss by just turning on the AC. Any actual degradation on a battery would be lost in the noise of what a GoM gives as an estimated range, based on previous driving styles and conditions.

You could drive to 0% until the EV literally dies, then charge to 100% and calculate the energy added. Then drive to 0 again and calculate the range, energy used and the efficiency to determine net battery capacity. But even that depends on the OAT and other factors and is of course very time consuming. Or to put it simply, not very accurate and could still be out by a few percent.

In short… a detailed battery SoH check is quicker and the most accurate method when looking at used EVs. Always ask for a SoH check and ask for a hard copy.

Should try turning on the heating - my range estimate takes a massive dive if I get stuck in traffic in this weather!

 

[dannyjo22]

How much is it worth now ? Good depreciation for a used car doesn’t suddenly stop. I imagine depreciation is still more than any fuel savings.

However I get you like the drive of an EV. I would too if comparing to some 3 cylinder diesel and such like.

Now I love the idea of an EV as someone who does 100 miles per day when I work but sadly the charging schedules when I would get home and then need to come off charge would mean I don't get the cheaper costs and would need to charge probably 50% every time. What I don't get is people who do 100 miles per week and then get one. You want to save fuel money by buying a more expensive car, horrendous residuals to save the £10 you were spending on fuel per week. I can see the maths if you're paying 250-400 pcp when you are already spending £250 on fuel per month but my monkey brain just cannot work out why someone doing 100 miles per week would bother.