F1 2009 Season discussion/development thread
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I was reading The Bible (Wikipedia) page about Nigel Mansell t'other day, and how at one stage his team mate had their two cars swapped because he though Nig's was faster. I wonder how much positive discrimination MS got that helped? Surely development of chassis etc would be tuned to him, at least in later years? I don't know enough of the team/history around this time to go on blabbing though!
That team-mate was none other than Alain Prost.
Lets get nostalgic.
What he did was if Mansell was quicker, he would ask his mechanics, who he had a good relationship with, to swap the cars over, overnight. Mansell would then come back in the morning and realise that his car was handling totally differently. In some instances, Mansell would go faster still (in Prost's car). Prost would respond by asking his mechanics to swap the cars over, yet again. Obviously Mansell was extremely pi$$ed off by Prost's underhanded actions and developed a strong dislike for him.
Prost was a very calculating individual who would leave no stone unturned in his persuit of winning.
Obviously Prost was already on bad terms with Senna, at this point. A few GPs into the season, Mansell started disliking Prost. Mansell also didnt get along with Senna and at one point had him by the throat. Literally.
In the late 80s/early 90s, when the top3 drivers (Mansell, Prost, Senna), used to race eachother, they werent just racing, they were essentially fighting eachother as they had a strong dislike for one another.
Once MS arrived on the scene, these "personal" battles, all but ended as he was very professional and generally didnt get involved in any personal squabbles.
This is why I loved 2007 so much, because for the first time in over a decade, we saw 2 drivers, at the top of their game (Hamilton/Alonso), who were the main contenders for the title, who happened to be team mates and hated eachother's guts. When Hamilton beat Alonso, he loved it and certainly rubbed Alonso's nose in it. Similarly, when Alonso won, he loved it - not just for the win, but for the fact that he beat Hamilton.
This is a definite possibility and is highly likely. But it wouldve been upto Barrichello to adapt his driving style to get the most out of the car. Top drivers generally do this. Mansell, Senna, Prost, Piquet, all had this ability. Just as Alonso and Hamilton do, in that they can get in the car for the first time and immediately be fast.
People make excuses for Barrichello, but the fact is, that he just wasnt in MS's class. Plain and simple.
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Pretty much all the top racing drivers of the past and present have been of questionable character, in one way or the other, happy to resort to unsporting methods.
More of Prost's antics
I gave the example of Prost above. Here's more.
Prost had a clause written into his contract, at Williams for 1993, that Senna could not join Williams. Williams at the time were the best team by miles and Senna offered to drive for free. Unfortunately, Williams couldnt take him up on his offer because Prost's contract stated that Senna was not permitted to join the team. Senna eventually did join Williams, but only after Prost retired. Prost stated that the reason why he didnt want Senna as team-mate was because they never got on. Many believe the truth to much more simple: Prost wanted an easy ride to the title, with no challengers, which is exactly what happened in 1993.
A few years before that, Prost also "took out" Senna at the Japanese GP, which allowed him to win the WDC.
Senna's antics
Senna repaid the compliment of the prevous year, by taking out Prost at the first corner, which allowed him to also win the WDC.
In Monaco 1992, Mansell was in 2nd, Senna in 1st. Mansell found himself in 2nd, with about 10 laps to go, because a wheel nut had come loose and he took an extra pit-stop to sort it out. Mansell was probably about 2s-3s/lap faster than Senna at this point, but could do nothing to get past Senna. Mansell alleged that Senna repeatedly brake-tested him during these laps. Brake-testing, is considered to be very unsporting.
Michael Schumacher's antics
We all know that MS took out Hill in 1994, to win the title. And did something similar in 1997 with Jacques Villeneuve. Then there was the time when he blocked the track at Monaco, preventing Alonso (his No.1 rival and eventual WDC that year) to complete his qualifying lap that might have got him pole.
The Future
And now we move into the era of Alonso and Hamilton. I personally see Hamilton as being capable of doing any and all of the above. He seems to have a single-minded belief that it is his right to win races and be ahead of his rivals, no matter what. This is why his rivals have been complaining - he isn't showing them respect on the track. If backmarkers get in the way, push those "monkeys" off the track.
Only time will tell of course, but 2009 could turn out to be a vintage year, with significant rule changes and a good possibility that Renault will be able to supply Alonso with a decent car, right from the word go, to compete with the Ferraris and Hamilton.
More of Prost's antics
I gave the example of Prost above. Here's more.
Prost had a clause written into his contract, at Williams for 1993, that Senna could not join Williams. Williams at the time were the best team by miles and Senna offered to drive for free. Unfortunately, Williams couldnt take him up on his offer because Prost's contract stated that Senna was not permitted to join the team. Senna eventually did join Williams, but only after Prost retired. Prost stated that the reason why he didnt want Senna as team-mate was because they never got on. Many believe the truth to much more simple: Prost wanted an easy ride to the title, with no challengers, which is exactly what happened in 1993.
A few years before that, Prost also "took out" Senna at the Japanese GP, which allowed him to win the WDC.
Senna's antics
Senna repaid the compliment of the prevous year, by taking out Prost at the first corner, which allowed him to also win the WDC.
In Monaco 1992, Mansell was in 2nd, Senna in 1st. Mansell found himself in 2nd, with about 10 laps to go, because a wheel nut had come loose and he took an extra pit-stop to sort it out. Mansell was probably about 2s-3s/lap faster than Senna at this point, but could do nothing to get past Senna. Mansell alleged that Senna repeatedly brake-tested him during these laps. Brake-testing, is considered to be very unsporting.
Michael Schumacher's antics
We all know that MS took out Hill in 1994, to win the title. And did something similar in 1997 with Jacques Villeneuve. Then there was the time when he blocked the track at Monaco, preventing Alonso (his No.1 rival and eventual WDC that year) to complete his qualifying lap that might have got him pole.
The Future
And now we move into the era of Alonso and Hamilton. I personally see Hamilton as being capable of doing any and all of the above. He seems to have a single-minded belief that it is his right to win races and be ahead of his rivals, no matter what. This is why his rivals have been complaining - he isn't showing them respect on the track. If backmarkers get in the way, push those "monkeys" off the track.
Only time will tell of course, but 2009 could turn out to be a vintage year, with significant rule changes and a good possibility that Renault will be able to supply Alonso with a decent car, right from the word go, to compete with the Ferraris and Hamilton.
Man of Honour
I'd absolutely love to see Renault give Alonso a car good enough to mount a serious challenge. People might not like him, but he has to be the best all-round F1 driver at the moment.
Raikkonen goes off the boil for long periods, Massa drops the ball too often, Hamilton still lacks experience and the racecraft that comes with it, Kubica appears to suffer mood-swings and doesn't always turn up to the party (shades of Carlos Reutemann there IMO)
A Hamilton/Alonso fight next year, in different machinery, would be a mouthwatering prospect. We can but hope....
Raikkonen goes off the boil for long periods, Massa drops the ball too often, Hamilton still lacks experience and the racecraft that comes with it, Kubica appears to suffer mood-swings and doesn't always turn up to the party (shades of Carlos Reutemann there IMO)
A Hamilton/Alonso fight next year, in different machinery, would be a mouthwatering prospect. We can but hope....
Soldato
Hamilton's true character will be revealed when he finds himself in a car that isn't quite giving him the pace he wants. That's when we'll see that he can play dirty too 
I just hope the '09 McLaren is good otherwise the harmony in the team that was there this year could be all gone. Lines like "I will see out my career with this team" will quickly be washed away...
Something that worries me about the "Alonso best in F1" remarks coming from all quarters at the moment is... will that ever change? Alonso was the last man to beat and thoroughly beat Schumi. Hamilton will very probably never get that privilege. He joined the game too late. So in order for Hamilton to prove his worth to these people he will need to craft his own niché which could mean winning at least 3 WDCs. (PS: I do agree though that Alonso is at the moment the best in F1)
I just hope the '09 McLaren is good otherwise the harmony in the team that was there this year could be all gone. Lines like "I will see out my career with this team" will quickly be washed away...
Something that worries me about the "Alonso best in F1" remarks coming from all quarters at the moment is... will that ever change? Alonso was the last man to beat and thoroughly beat Schumi. Hamilton will very probably never get that privilege. He joined the game too late. So in order for Hamilton to prove his worth to these people he will need to craft his own niché which could mean winning at least 3 WDCs. (PS: I do agree though that Alonso is at the moment the best in F1)
Soldato
sunama - good posts. I think you've hit the nail on the head, something I said several times throughout the season - to be a top, muti-WDC winner, you HAVE to be prepared to take the rules to mthe limit, pushing the boundaries and be prepared to push those beyond the limit to find exactly how far you can go. Being a nice guy (Damon Hill) will not make you a multiple WD champion because you simply do not have the killer instinct to win when you a re not in the best machinery by a way. Hamilton has shown this and so has Alonso. FA refused to share any details of his setup for most of the season last year with his rookie team mate. He basically got McLaren into the brown stuff over the Ferrari dossier and did what he could to mess up LH's season.
All of the above is why FM will not be a multiple WDC. He is a nice guy and deserves a title and I hope he does get one, i just do not see the killer instinct in him. KR sulks when he can't win and lost all interest this season - again, not an indication of a multiple champion. SV has yet to have the opportunity to show whether or not he has a ruthless streak and I hope he does as I'd love to See LH, FA and SV going hat it hammer and tongs!!!!
All of the above is why FM will not be a multiple WDC. He is a nice guy and deserves a title and I hope he does get one, i just do not see the killer instinct in him. KR sulks when he can't win and lost all interest this season - again, not an indication of a multiple champion. SV has yet to have the opportunity to show whether or not he has a ruthless streak and I hope he does as I'd love to See LH, FA and SV going hat it hammer and tongs!!!!
Couple of pieces of weekend F1 news, just prior to this weeks test at Spain.
• Rubens not testing this week - Read more
- Anyone else think he won't get a seat for 09? I have a feeling they will get a GP2 driver in there.
• Canada's attempts of getting back on the 09 list fail again - Read More
- Shame to see it go. No doubt replaced with another tilk-drone track
• Rubens not testing this week - Read more
- Anyone else think he won't get a seat for 09? I have a feeling they will get a GP2 driver in there.
• Canada's attempts of getting back on the 09 list fail again - Read More
- Shame to see it go. No doubt replaced with another tilk-drone track
• Canada's attempts of getting back on the 09 list fail again - Read More
- Shame to see it go. No doubt replaced with another tilk-drone track
I think the teams need to start laying the law down to Bernie - not having a race in a major market such as North America is unfathomable to the manufacturer constructors.
On second thoughts, I suppose he'll need the money with the impending divorce and all that.
Canada gets dropped, they plead with Bernie to take them back, Bernie ignores them.
China says it may leave F1, Bernie is round strait away with the wine and chocolates to convince them to stay, saying he can change and that he really does want comitment, he just didnt realise it.
China says it may leave F1, Bernie is round strait away with the wine and chocolates to convince them to stay, saying he can change and that he really does want comitment, he just didnt realise it.
Soldato
Canada gets dropped, they plead with Bernie to take them back, Bernie ignores them.
China says it may leave F1, Bernie is round strait away with the wine and chocolates to convince them to stay, saying he can change and that he really does want comitment, he just didnt realise it.
yup, but its because all these "old" tracks suck for VIP's. Who cares about on track battles....
They need to race at Laguna Seca
Soldato
I think it looks pretty good. Certainly not elegant but definitely interesting.
Can't wait to see some more '09 style parts.
Can't wait to see some more '09 style parts.
They need to race at Laguna Seca
It'll never happen "in the name of safety".
Don
That BM looks fantastically different!
Whats the story with Laguna Seca then? Has it ever been touted as an F1 track?
Whats the story with Laguna Seca then? Has it ever been touted as an F1 track?
Toyota have done testing there, but that was to set a new track record IIRC. I don't think it would be able to mould into what the FIA deem a suitable track, and I doubt the owners would want to modify it. The lap time of 1,06.3 shows that it's also too short for modern F1 racing.
I'd prefer them to go to Watkins Glen.
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Interesting ...
What successful F1 driver doesn't have a single-minded belief that it is his right to win races and be ahead of his rivals, no matter what?
I suspect that if backmarkers get in any F1 driver's way, they would feel and react in much the same way.
As to Hamilton's rivals have been complaining that he isn't showing them respect on the track - yup, that's true, spoilt young upstart
Incidentally, do you believe Alonos's assertion that he had equipment inferior to Hamilton last year and this was what prevented him winning the championship?
ps - I rate Alonso very highly but I do think that he did himself no great favours when he was with McLaren. He did much better this year (in PR terms) and hopefully will do even better next year
