F1 2012 - Teams and Drivers - Who goes where?!

Skeeter · 10 Dec 2011 at 18:05

But that doesn't change the fact that the original guises of the teams that signed up for F1 did so when there was promise of a £40m budget cap and in season testing..

So what if they are owned by different people? The foundations were of teams geared up for a very different F1.

Mr Men · 10 Dec 2011 at 18:07

Skeeter said:
But that doesn't change the fact that the original guises of the teams signed up for F1 when there was promise of a £40m budget cap and in season testing..

Nor does it change the fact that they have since changed hands in the knowledge there is no budget cap, so how does my point not stand up?

Mr Men · 10 Dec 2011 at 18:07

Glaucus said:
Virgin wasn't a sell out. It was a sponsorship. Same team. Wasnt sold till 2011.
Hrt wasn't sold till well after devlopment started and funds in place.

But they all knew there was no budget cap, which is my point.

Glaucus · 10 Dec 2011 at 18:09

Mr Men said:
But they all knew there was no budget cap, which is my point.

It want sold till 2011, so 2012 will be the first season when the owners knew there was no budget cap.

Skeeter · 10 Dec 2011 at 18:10

I'm confused as to what your trying to say?

By buying a team you work of a clean slate, and are completely unaffected by the foundations and regulations that team was founded and built on?

HRT, Marussia and Caterham are probubly 12 months behind in development. A delay they wouldn't have anticipated when they started up. Assuming the new owners are not complete idiots, they would be well aware of this.

Mr Men · 10 Dec 2011 at 18:11

Glaucus said:
It want sold till 2011, so 2012 will be the first season when the owners knew there was no budget cap.

And Virgin knew, who without their money that team would not have been on the grid.

Virgin purchased eighty percent of the team, as part of sponsorship arrangement.[23] T

Glaucus · 10 Dec 2011 at 18:12

Mr Men said:
And Virgin knew, who without their money that team would not have been on the grid.

Virgin didn't own the team, had no input. They were a sponsor. Most of the cars devlopment in 2010 was done on a budget.

Mr Men · 10 Dec 2011 at 18:13

Skeeter said:
I'm confused as to what your trying to say?

Why are you confused, because you were wrong?

I think my point is clear, these teams are not the same as when they signed up thinking there was a budget cap.

Mr Men · 10 Dec 2011 at 18:14

Glaucus said:
Virgin didn't own the team, had no input. They were a sponsor. Most of the cars devlopment in 2010 was done on a budget.

see my edit, but yes they did.

Skeeter · 10 Dec 2011 at 18:15

Maybe not, but the fact remains, they did sign up when there was a budget cap.

Which was the initial point I made, that you rejected.

Glaucus · 10 Dec 2011 at 18:17

Fair enough.

Mr Men · 10 Dec 2011 at 18:17

Skeeter said:
Maybe not, but the fact remains, they did sign up when there was a budget cap.

Which was the initial point I made, that you rejected.

There was never a budget cap, so we can reject your point right away on that one

As I have said and shown these 2 teams are not under any illusion about a budget cap. But really it does not matter at the end of the day, they are a waste of grid space

Glaucus · 10 Dec 2011 at 18:19

Why are they waste of a grid space?
Do you know how precise these cars need to be. And how technological advance they are in terms of aero design.
Long gone are the days of a team being able to come in and be in the midfield or better.

Skeeter · 10 Dec 2011 at 18:20

Mr Men said:
There was never a budget cap, so we can reject your point right away on that one

You being serious?

£40m budget cap announced by the FIA, teams signing up got greater technical freedom. Changed rules caused major arguments with the existing teams. Concern over a 2-tier F1. Ferrari threatened to lead a break away series. At one point only Williams had actually lodged an entry for 2010...

Any of this ringing a bell?

And perhaps if the teams hadn't all been signed up under the promise of a budget cap, they wouldn't be a waste of grid space

Mr Men · 10 Dec 2011 at 18:20

what I mean is that F1 and it's cost cutting to assist teams like this is a waste of time, F1 should be trying to get manufacturers back into the sport, not go kart teams running from a shed

Mr Men · 10 Dec 2011 at 18:23

Skeeter said:
You being serious?

£40m budget cap announced by the FIA, teams signing up got greater technical freedom. Changed rules caused major arguments with the existing teams. Ferrari threatened to lead a break away series. At one point only Williams had actually lodged an entry for 2010...

Any of this ringing a bell?

And perhaps if the teams hadn't all been signed up under the promise of a budget cap, they wouldn't be a waste of grid space

I think they proposed a budget cap and offered 13 teams to apply

If Williams was the only team to sign up for the budget cap idea, then where does your point fit in with HRT and Virgin, they were not signed up?

So yes there was never a budget cap, just a whole lot of politics and the FIA doing the usual, come out with something outrageous but get the teams to cut costs anyway, which was the aim all along.

Skeeter · 10 Dec 2011 at 18:26

Mr Men said:
what I mean is that F1 and it's cost cutting to assist teams like this is a waste of time, F1 should be trying to get manufacturers back into the sport, not go kart teams running from a shed

Like Aston Martin, who were one of the options for a new team, headed up by Dave Richards.

Or VW, who had expressed interest until Max Moeslys little night in.

Or Honda and Toyota and the VAG group, who were all very interested in the Inline 4 cylinder turbo specification, until it was changed into a V6 turbo.

The current situation is entirely the making of F1 itself. If its unhappy, it only has itself to blame.

The best bit was when Bernie called all the new team an embaressment, after choosing the weakest teams himself under a promise of rules he then changed...

Mr Men · 10 Dec 2011 at 18:27

Bernie never picked the teams, the FIA did

Skeeter · 10 Dec 2011 at 18:32

Ok then, the FIA picked them.

The same people who anounced a budget cap.

I still don't get what your saying though. Are you trying to say that the teams being originally signed up when there was in season testing and a budget cap is no excuse for the current owners to have for the teams current performance?

I'd say having half the testing alone is a big enough excuse for their current performance. No new owners is going to magic up testing time...

So, revising my comment to fit your terminology:

The current position and performance of HRT and Marussia is because of limited testing over the 2 years of their involvement in F1, and because the teams were originally setup with the plan to operate under a £40m budget cap.

Mr Men · 10 Dec 2011 at 18:35

Skeeter said:
I still don't get what your saying though. Are you trying to say that the teams being originally signed up when there was in season testing and a budget cap is no excuse for the current owners to have for the teams current performance?

I'd say having half the testing alone is a big enough excuse for their current performance. No new owners is going to magic up testing time...

Yes, they are a joke as Aknor said

Lack of testing was across the board, other teams have managed just fine, for goodness sake Virgin did not even have a wind tunnel, a joke.