F1 2015 - Teams and Drivers - Who goes where?!

Mclaren have over the season been the third best Mercedes car quite clearly. In fact the only races Mclaren have been flat out crap at where Bahrain, China and Spain, in every other race they've had one car finish between 2nd and 8th. It's not brilliant and Magnussen has had too many finishes 10th or below, though of course 2 of them he did physically finish several places higher without the penalties being added.
I disagree on them being the third best Mercedes car but you've just proven my point.. they have had ONE car finish fairly high up while the other is a lot further back..ie one is being driven better than the other, heaven forbid it's down to the driver :rolleyes: I never said the overall points they've made was good, although take out mercedes and it's not actually that bad relatively, the car is just not good enough to do any better than they are doing but you can understand that some of this is down to limited mercedes involvement due to 'secrecy over the engine'.

Mclaren haven't been nearly as bad as some people like to make out.
Or perhaps... Button isn't as bad as you try to make out....
 
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Please point out in my posts where I've been saying Button is terrible, anywhere?

I'll give you a hint, smr posted a link to a comparison between the two drivers in which clear as day it says Magnussen finished ahead in 2 races... smr proceeds to magically misread a ridiculous simple graph. It's pointed out to him he's wrong... NOTHING ELSE, apparently that makes me anti Button.

There is simply no question that Mclaren is better than the FI, only someone looking at(and judging the season off) the first 5 races in which they only had one great race(two podiums) one DNF special and 2 poor races doesn't give a basis to judge the car for the season. 16 races gives a much better picture and it's just unquestionable the Mclaren is significantly stronger than the FI.

I don't try and make out Button is terrible, I didn't try and make out Vettel was terrible, I simply don't think Button is particularly good, nor bad. He's slow and steady, the odd good overtake, too weak in defence.

AS for Mercedes secrecy about the engine, if there was any limited involvement after they pay the same as any other engine buyer, they'd be screaming about it at the top of their lungs and they aren't.

The Mclaren is the third best Mercedes engine car, which puts it pretty much behind Mercedes, williams, and depending on the particular track/set of conditions means they either end up 3rd to 5th fastest car at the track depending on if the Red Bull or Ferrari does okay at that track or not.

Thus they finish mostly 4-8th, 4th because Massa can't fail to hit anything that goes anywhere near him so rather than 5th's they get some 4th's thrown in for good measure.

It's quite funny(I'm laughing at Massa, not Button), but all of Button's best races have coincided with a Massa crash or in the case of Russia, a fuel problem in qualifying that cost him a decent finish.

The longer the season has gone on and the slightly better Williams and Mclaren have gotten, the more often they do better than Red Bull and Ferrari... better qualifying from button, better racing from Magnussen and they'd be beating those guys a lot more often. They've got a peach of an engine and haven't capitalised on it at all.
 
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For me, performance is pretty irrelevant between Jenson and Kevin, it's about the bigger picture.

JB is nearing the end of his career. If they get Alonso in next year and keep Button then I expect Button to be a 1 year contract at most. So in 2016 they will have to find someone else. Then Alonso is likely to retire too, so if he leaves at the end of that year they need another new driver in 2017. If that happens then McLaren will have changed it's driver line up every year for 5 years in a row (2013 to 2017). That's not how you build a team up from a low patch.

In summary, the biggest barrier JB has to retaining his place is his age.
 
For me, performance is pretty irrelevant between Jenson and Kevin, it's about the bigger picture.

JB is nearing the end of his career. If they get Alonso in next year and keep Button then I expect Button to be a 1 year contract at most. So in 2016 they will have to find someone else. Then Alonso is likely to retire too, so if he leaves at the end of that year they need another new driver in 2017. If that happens then McLaren will have changed it's driver line up every year for 5 years in a row (2013 to 2017). That's not how you build a team up from a low patch.

In summary, the biggest barrier JB has to retaining his place is his age.

How old was mansell when he won his championship?
 
And then youve got button who is infinitely fitter than nigel was at 39 and with easier cars to drive. Yet hes got 1 year left in him according to the whole world.

Riiiiiiight.

There's no doubting that Button is in fantastic shape but I don't think drivers have the longevity they may have enjoyed in the past.

Drivers are starting younger and younger so I'd imagine there is more pressure on drivers, and teams seem to love the idea of finding the 'next big thing'.

I would imagine the average age would have been higher in Mansell's day.
 
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Fanboyism aside, I'm trying to decide if the disparity between the qualifying and race result stats say more about Buttons qualifying, or Magnussens race pace?

Magnessons race pace. JB has always been terrible on saturdays for at least the last 5 years. Neither Perez or KM have shown enough against him on saturday or sunday to convince they are the better option than button. It doesn't matter that he's a rookie, so was Lewis when he went against Alonso. You sink or swim and KM has sunk against someone of half the ability Lewis had to face in Alonso. Just keep giving Jenson one year deals until someone actually good comes along.

Mclaren don't need to invest in potential, they should just get the best available at the time and KM isn't it. Secure him to a contract and loan him out.


There's no doubting that Button is in fantastic shape but I don't think drivers have the longevity they may have enjoyed in the past.

Drivers are starting younger and younger so I'd imagine there is more pressure on drivers, and teams seem to love the idea of finding the 'next big thing'.

I would imagine the average age would have been higher in Mansell's day.

Which is odd as the cars are said to be much much less demanding these days. If you are still on your game as button is there is no reason to replace him with a slower young driver.
 
JB was interviewed on the Sky F1 pre-race show last week and his response to the question about his bad qualifying was that he always sets his car up for race-day.

Makes sense and seems to go some way to explain his poor qually and race-day performance...seems like an easy response though.
 
Which is odd as the cars are said to be much much less demanding these days. If you are still on your game as button is there is no reason to replace him with a slower young driver.

Yep, don't think it's so much to do with the physicality of it... I'm sure many of the drivers could and would happily drive into their 40's if given the option.

To be fair to Magnussen it's his first season in F1 and people are pointing out that he is being beaten by someone in his 15th who as has been pointed out is still in very good form... I should bloody well hope so... Even Prost got beat in his first season :p

I'm not exactly sure how much there is to it but something which is sometimes mentioned is also the Pirelli tyres, known to be tricky for some drivers to get used to, that was the idea of GP2 using them and is the excuse of why it's taking recent champions so many seasons to eventually win the title, Magnussen didn't have that experience as he cam straight from FR 3.5.
 
JB was interviewed on the Sky F1 pre-race show last week and his response to the question about his bad qualifying was that he always sets his car up for race-day.

Makes sense and seems to go some way to explain his poor qually and race-day performance...seems like an easy response though.

However he does set his car up for the race as he realises that Sundays aren't won by a single lap on a Saturday, neither are points scored on a Saturday either.
The thing is Eric B gas already stated that JB doesn't have to prove himself to keep his seat. Unlike all the armchair critics the paddock all agree that JB is a very good racer, a very good choice who has flattered a poorly handling car yet again.
 
Because effort:

With the development of new Honda powertrain is one month behind schedule, is explained. For the Japanese are far in personnel planning. And Fernando Alonso is absolute top priority.

After the precipitated Ferrari president Luca Montezemolo confirmed, "Fernando Alonso is leaving Ferrari at the end of the season because he suffered from having won in five years, no other world title more," the way of the Asturiers is mapped out: He leads him neither in a Auszeitjahr expected at Audi in the World Sportscar Championship, but how to McLaren-Honda.

Alonso's return to the team from which he retired in late 2007 in the strife is managed by the new engine partner. The negotiations with the two-time champion and his manager Luis Garcia Abad leads the CEO of "Honda Motor Corporation," Takanobu Ito (61), in person. "Alonso is absolute top priority," reveals an insider SPEEDWEEK.com.

This also because Alonso will be with his new three-year contract with bandied 105 million euros Gage employee Hondas and not McLarens - the British team will employ only the number 2 of the drivers (Kevin Magnussen or Jenson Button).

"Honda's project is for three years, during this time you want to win the title," says our informant, who wishes to remain anonymous. The delay in the development of engine and hybrid system is due to a radical change in the concept, as the Japanese original of Ferraris which are basically access and after the first season results recognized the benefits of Mercedes.

However, much of the philosophy of Red Bull, rather than to own it as a sponsor, and Honda will make every effort to take over at least 25 percent of long-term boss Ron Dennis at McLaren - this is obviously in line with the investor Mumtalakat from Bahrain, the 50 percent is held (the remaining 25 belong Mansour Ojjehs TAG group).

And so is the Causa more interesting ...

"If Honda takes over the shares of Dennis, the Japanese will use their own man. You need someone who knows thoroughly the Formula 1 in FIA and Ecclestone is well-connected and should have as a past with Honda, "says the insider. A requirement profile, tailored to Gerhard Berger - still declared on request before the Grand Prix of Russia: "With me, no one has spoken about it."

But the informant says: "Senna is no longer alive, Prost is persona non grata at Honda, so stay as a former Honda GP winner only Berger. In addition, the Japanese have followed exactly what he achieved as a Toro Rosso boss. And Berger has always been very popular in Japan. "

How serious is the Honda Formula 1 return, show reshuffles: 150 engineers are now working at the Development Center Tochigi, some were taken from the MotoGP team, even brought some veterans from the 1980s from the board. And a proposed model for China Street is delayed two months because technicians were diverted to Formula 1.

For McLaren, claims the insider, is the exclusivity of the Honda deals not cemented forever: "If McLaren does not appear at the end of the season in the Constructors' Championship in the top box, Honda has the right to choose other teams as partners. It protects itself, so far as it goes. "
 
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To be fair to Magnussen it's his first season in F1 and people are pointing out that he is being beaten by someone in his 15th who as has been pointed out is still in very good form... I should bloody well hope so... Even Prost got beat in his first season :p.

Yes we think that he's been on decent form, but the general consensus on here is that he's old, past it and in poor form. Those people are clearly wrong or KM is pretty crap, rookie or not.

It's such a shame Honda went with Mclaren. They should have gone with Red Bull.
 
See that again screams to me, Honda are going to be behind on the engine. They've had a radical change in direction since they've seen the Merc engine? So they've started working on a split turbo, likely when Ferrari/Renault started working on a split turbo design, when it was clear Merc had the best engine by a mile. Meaning Honda have been working on their engine for what, a year, while merc have been working on this split turbo engine for what, 2-3 years longer?

With a full season and multiple teams contributing data in every race, throughout preseason, getting the most mileage in preseason by a mile, which will also mean they will have gotten the best and earliest start on what needed improving for next years engine.

Honda are years behind and thousands of miles behind in testing, finding and fixing reliability issues. After finally getting the engine done and ready for preseason they will lose ground with less miles run. TR/Caterham put in dozens/hundreds of laps in total while Red Bull had a disaster which helped Renault get going. Without that RBR would have been a disaster for the start of the season.

It will take a miracle for Honda to manage to smash Merc to pieces in terms of the engine and with a clear engine advantage Mclaren are meh this year.

I don't know what to make of Alonso, has he done it purely for the money, possibly. Has he done it because like Hamilton he just lost faith in the team he was with and it was more about leaving for a fresh challenge than a better chance to win.
 
KM certainly hasn't lived upto mclaren hype.
And other rookies have done far better than him.

Conversely Kobayashi came in and rocked. While the other Toyota drivers were never top class, they made him look like a world beater.

I think Magnussen is deserving of another season as he's undoubtedly shown glimpses of promise, but it's a cut throat business, and you either need to hit the ground running or to bring in wads of cash - sometimes both. McLaren would happily place him into a sister team, but they won't have one next year, so it might be game over.
 
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