FIA Formula E Championship

[Glaucus]

Read the eu link.

The European Commission today adopted a comprehensive strategy (Transport 2050) for a competitive transport system that will increase mobility, remove major barriers in key areas and fuel growth and employment. At the same time, the proposals will dramatically reduce Europe's dependence on imported oil and cut carbon emissions in transport by 60% by 2050.

 

[Glaucus]

You also running and paying for two systems, hybrids in america have been pretty stable since 2007, although there was a spike in 2012 (similar spike in 2007), so will be interesting what the 2013 sales show, to see if that spike continues.
But my opinion hybrids have pretty much come and gone and by 2020 will be looking rather dated. Especially with tesla doing so well and expanding into new markets. Ontop of that if just one of the protype batteries make it to mass market(if they do it should be between 2017-2020) then the need for them vanishes. With between 2-10 times current storage depending on the protoype. And rapid charge potentially in the couple of minute range, again this depends which if any make it to mass market. But there's so many and some are so simple, its hard to imagine none of them making it, with the billions being spent.

 

[Glaucus]

No one makes them other than prototypes. Im surprised you aren't aware of the several dozen battery. protoypes out there.
Be great if someone in F-E paid the lab to make several hundred cells for the car.

Closest in production is Toshiba SCiB which can be charged in 10mins(thats full charge not 80%). Which is in the Honda Fit, although i don't know of any ev chargers capable yet and as far as I know they've only produced a very limited run.

Toshiba say, but they also say 10minute fall charge and 5minute 90% charge on product spec pages, so maybe dialled down for EVs.

The SCiB charges in about half the time of a typical Li-ion battery, Toshiba says. An SCiB 20Ah cell charged with an 80Ah current will reach 80% of capacity in 15 minutes and 95% in an additional 3 minutes. The SCiB generates little heat even during this fast recharging, eliminating the need for power to cool the battery module. Moreover, the full charge-discharge cycle for SCiB is 4,000 times, more than 2.5 times that of other Li-ion batteries. This long life could also contribute to the reuse of the battery.

On toshiba Scibs product page

SCiB batteries can be charged in as little as 10 minutes and have excellent thermal performance

scib would not need replacing in the cars life, most manufactures/industry base it on 150,000miles. Even the leaf with it's poultry 100mile battery pack would be good for 400,000 miles. Its also upto 100% recyclable.

 

[Glaucus]

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2011/11/scib-20111117.html

http://www.toshiba.com/ind/product_display.jsp?id1=821


Was even talk early on of 5minute to 90%

http://gopaultech.com/blog/2007/12/5-minute-charge-time-toshiba-scib-battery/


As for prototypes with even faster charging would have to try and find them, I don't keep a list to hand.

Edit-
Heres one
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/08/15/lithium_ion_batteries_quick_charge/

Theres another one, i cant remember its name, but they basically "drill" nano holes trough each layer of the battery, meaning some electrons can skip that layer and charge the next layer up, drastically cutting recharge times.

Edit 2 - found it, thats why I remember it 5x the storage, rather than its charge time. But its charge time is still 10x faster than normal lithium ion. 15minute for tablets etc, not sure how that eould translate to EVs or rapid chargers for EVs. http://extragood****.phlap.net/index.php/graphene-improves-lithium-ion-battery-capacity-and-recharge-rate-by-10x/

 

[Glaucus]

Theres dozens of others as well.

The one i cant get my head round is Nissans charger. Charges current lithium ion in 10mins. But I don't get how it works. The charger uses a different electrode , but how does that affect the charge rate of the battery.

http://www.thegreencarwebsite.co.uk...0/12/nissan-develops-10-min-ev-super-charger/

 

[Glaucus]

So Honda says it takes 3 hours to charge the FitEV. I wonder if the life cycles are drastically reduced charging at 4C.

That is unlikely to be its actual charge time. Seeing what toshiba spec the battery at.
That is far more likely to just be the charge time for a standard 240v home supply, which cant provide the power needed for faster times.

 

[Glaucus]

They are working on range, its just while they can pump out improvements in charging relatively quickly, the higher density batteries we are looking at 2017-2020 window.

Or you just put a big battery pack in like the tesla s and can do over 300miles.

There is so much going on with charging and batteries its why along with already adopted plans and plans in the making, why nothing else is going to win over EVs bar some massive unknown breakthrough.

 

[Glaucus]

Quite. Supplying the power for faster charging is definitely an issue for EVs. That's the best that the FitEV can do though as it doesn't support fast DC charging, which begs the question as to why Honda picked those cells.

i doubt that is down to the cells. The first leaf didn't support rapid charging but that wasn't down to the cells but the other gubins.

Nissan said that it was a mistake so they've added DC charging, in the newer models
maybe Honda is going the same as ford.
Ford focus wont support DC charging either, it seems they dont want to commit to the one and only DC charging standard yet.


Tesla for the home you can get a double charger iirc its 240v at 32amps, where a single charger is 16amps. Which is one way. Other than that you start looking at much more expensive chargers. Or upgrading infrastructure. The national grid is already being upgraded, they're spending 3billion a year for the next 10+ years. As well as researching smart grids.

 

[Glaucus]

Yes we've already ascertained that it's not down to the cells, which is why I'm wondering why they picked those cells if they're not going to support fast charging them.

3hrs is still over twice as fast as normal lithium ion.

I think basically they have a faster charge rate as standard hence you get the three hours(although this is power supply limit rather than battery). While the Nissan leaf standard charge is closer 8hrs (battery charge rate limit rather than power). That's my assumption anyway. As well as future compatibility.

Now if they incorporated DC charging as well.

Edit - thats interesting nissan say if the primary charge is dc fast charge, they expect 10% loss over 10years more than standard 220v charging. Thats a pretty small loss for the connivence.

If fast charging is the primary way that a Leaf owner recharges, then the gradual capacity loss is about 10 percent more than 220-volt charging. In other words, it will bring the capacity loss closer to 70 percent after 10 years.

 

[Glaucus]

Except lithium ion isn't new. It's easy to do rapid charge discharge cycles in the labs and there have been. So the predictions should be fairly accurate, it isn't unchartered territory.


On another note scib rapid charge discharge graphs etc.
http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2007_12/1101/SCiB.pdf

 

[Glaucus]

Only takes 2 minutes so solve that. You don't want to leave for work and then have to take the day off because you forgot to charge your car and it takes 8 hours.

And how many take 8hrs? The original leaf and thats about it. You seem to be in denial. Most have fast/rapid charging and its getting faster all the time, the new nissan charger is 10min fast charge and is said to work on any battery pack. The honda fit that doesnt have fast charge is only 3hrs to full.

So what causes the lack of capacity when fast charging is used? Is it something that can be refurbished and fixed or does part of the battery actually die?

The biggest issue is not all cells discharge/charge at the same rate, this means that individual cells can over charge and that cuases damage, heat also causes damage as well, faster you charge the hotter they get. This si why they only charge to 80% so that any indivdual cell does not overcharge. Many also have thermal managment as well.
Tesla take ot further and the car and charger talk to each other far more than other manufactures to ensure a good charge without damaging.
Which is why in MIT testing as well as nissan, tesla etc. show you can rapid charge all the time and not drastcally shorten the lifespan. People need to realise cheap gadgets do not have the same sort of protections and battery managment as applications like EVs.

Other than that its just standard damage on the lithium batteries. Lithium slowly sticks permantly to the cathode reducing charge capcity and the nano structures in the cell detriorate over time.

You can make lithium batteires last much longer than designed by keeping the temprature and max voltage down.

 

[Glaucus]

Of course they can. It does not take 8hrs even with much longer range.

And why 1000miles, which car can do 1000miles on a single tank?

Tesla s, 200miles in 30mins
Nissans new charger 100miles in 10mins. So stuff already out can easily achieve 1000miles in well under 8hr. Let alone the protoype batteries, which would see the pack in tesla S well over 1000miles, or more likely reduced pack size and cost.

You really have something against ev and just keep getting it wrong.

 

[Glaucus]

And your statement as with many in here have been utter BS. Even with currently available equipment it doesn't take 8hrs, its utter BS let alone prototype stuff. Not that it was anything to do with 1000 miles you just added that in as you knew you were wrong, forgot to plug in for work > 1000miles.

 

[Glaucus]

Your really not up for any discussion around this unless it fits your view, are you?

Im up for discussion, I'm not up for you posting rubbish, which you have done plenty of.

But we know that if a battery is fast charged all the time it will only last half it's life time.
I hope they do come up with something in the next 20 years.

That is false and if you read the thread you would already now that.

 

[Glaucus]

And if you had that it would have been fair enough, but your original statement was nothing of the sort. But even thats stretching things, who the hell is going to forget to plug in. You also cant apply one specific car to an entire market.

And that only applies at the moment, the batteries in the fit can be rapid charged and faster than normal lithium ion, so when Honda decide on the system they want to use, then it will be far shorter.

Theres several discussion, whats available now, what will be available in the very near feature and what will be available in say 2020.

 

[Glaucus]

Oh sorry. I never knew car makers was telling lies when they said that if you fast charge a battery car
the batteries we will have to be replaced sooner, and to FULLY charge todays car batteries takes 6-8 hours.

And the cost of replacing the batteries is just silly money. Hydrogen fuel cell cars are the way forward
as we can never un out of hydrogen unlike the stuff they use to make batteries which is already in short supply.

Do you remember the Hybrid Hydrogen Rapide S with the V12 engine? and fuel-cell electric cars will be on sale in 2015.

Hydrogen fuel cells are not the way forward at all. For many many reasons. We also aren't in short supply, unless you only read scaremongering articles.

Its not just car manufactures, its universities like MIT and other instutions that have all done rapid charge discharge cycle testing.

Replacing batteries isn't going to be an issue, the ones in the Honda fit for example, will last longer than the expected car life. scib cells are good for 6000+ cycles. Manufactures are aiming for 150k mile car life. So even with the fits tiny battery pack, it will easily achieve the cars life. Let alone if they put a decent sized battery pack in, like on the tesla S.

 

[Glaucus]

The leaf has fast charging.

The Honda fit is capable of a full charge in 10mins if Honda fitted fast charging capability.

It is still not 8hrs not even close. The average is also far far lower than 80miles a day. Iirc the avarage mileage is something like 36miles a day,
Ev is not currently suitable for a lot of people, although tesla S makes it suitable for a lot. Fit/leaf are designed as city cars with low millage.

This does in no way mean that it will stay this way.

 

[Glaucus]

None of the fast chargers can be used at home.

Nor can you fill up petrol at home, and actually fast chargers can be used at home, they're just expensive, they're down to about $11k now and off course need new wiring, so depends on your local grid. several rich people have fast chargers in their garage.

You also realise they are upgrading the national grid at 3billion a year. Not all for ev, a lot of it is renewable as well as smarter grid. But it is being upgraded in anticipation of evs, at home generation and mass renewable.

 

[Glaucus]

You mean like the same articles that say the world is warming up because of cars and that's why governments put a tax on it?
You can run out of the materials to make batteries we won't ever run out of Hydrogen.
Even the guy here that works for Williams said the same about batteries\resources.



Oh Honda the same company that is selling the Hydrogen car in 2015?
Oh I'm glad you mentioned MIT as they have said "Clean energy could lead to scarce materials" go read the MIT news site.

Anyway my batteries are running low time for a recharge

How do you cretae the hydrogen, how do you store t, how do you transport it. What are the fuel cells made out of?

You really are clueless on this subject and like disinformation
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2011/06/albertus-20110617.html
Now take that with lithium recycling that is already available.

And no we aren't running out of stuff to make batteries out of. Do you even know what the batteries are made of and how much is avialble. Let alone other batteries. Lithium is also recyclable.

Hydrogen isn't the future and never was. It has far to many downsides and no upsides.

 

[Glaucus]

More hydrogen refilling than chargers, you having a Girrafe. Hydrogen is not widely available. Theres no infrastructure to support it for vehicles and isn't being built.
Compared to thousands of charging stations already in place and being used, a massive national grid already set up and mass power stations already exist producing electricity.


Only one recycling plant, give over here's another http://toxco.com/processes.html and theres more than that as well. Not that they are even needed at the moment. Did you even glimpse at the report, that doesn't even take into account recycling and can still produce enough batteries for more cars than the world currently has. Lithium isn't the only suitable battery either.

Hydrogen might be most abundant, but its extremely energy intensive to get. And far less efficient than batteries end to end. Its also extremely hard to store. Every single part of hydrogen creation and supply still needs research and isn't ready. Where batteries are ready and available to the public and are getting better all the time.

And wheres this MiT report.seeing as mit says this, which isnt what you say http://web.mit.edu/12.000/www/m2016/finalwebsite/problems/raremetals.html

Although there maybe short term supply issues as production needs to ramp up to meet demand.