Former Russian double agent seriously ill in Salisbury.

Danny75 said:
Providing samples shouldn't be a problem. This will provoke more questions.
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The Russians are claiming that in such an event there is an established official channel through which the British government can raise the question of Russian involvement. In which case the Russians would need to investigate the substance themselves and then officially say whether it is theirs or not as far as I understand but the British have refused to provide the sample. The Russians say that they should reply within 10 days as per the agreement for these matters.

Given fairly straightforward accusation by May it would seem reasonable to assume the the British government is fairly certain of the Russian involvement.
 
Firestar_3x said:
Not sure we are allowed to send samples of a chemical weapon to another state, this will probably break the rules of weapon proliferation.
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Seems to be a standard procedure

https://www.ft.com/content/42417f04-26ac-11e8-b27e-cc62a39d57a0

“We are expecting the United Kingdom to reply to our request that we sent in accordance with the [Chemical Weapons Convention] to present the substance in question to us and to open the entire investigation to us, because it involves a Russian citizen [Mr Skripal’s daughter].” - Lavrov
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This quote seems to concentrate on the fact that a Russian citizen was involved (his daughter) hence the UK would need to involve Russia as well but I read in another article, which I can not find for now, that Lavrov claimed that the UK must follow standard procedure as both are signatories to the chemical weapons convention.
 
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Nerusy said:
I read in another article, which I can not find for now, that Lavrov claimed that the UK must follow standard procedure as both are signatories to the chemical weapons convention.
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Here's one:

Lavrov said the British government was obliged to provide Moscow access to the substance because Britain and Russia were signatories to the Chemical Weapons Convention.

But London had so far refused to provide Moscow access to the substance and other materials related to the poisoning case, Lavrov said.

“On these absolutely legitimate demands ... we received a gibberish response, which in general can be summarised by saying that we were denied these legitimate requests,” he said.

Britain should fulfil its international obligations under the Chemical Weapons Convention before Russia will respond to its request, Lavrov said.

https://in.reuters.com/article/brit...rve-agent-used-in-spy-poisoning-idINKCN1GP1PC
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Timing is everything. If he was fired last week, why didn't Trump tweet it back then. Only takes a couple of clicks, and it's not like he's shown patience before.

Why would you not let the new incoming secretary of state to come onto the world stage and make that statement.
 
Man, I actually like Lavrov, there's a particular stream of nature to his person that is just delightful. Too bad it's mired in this post-war intrigue, rather than something useful.
 
Nerusy said:
With regards to the actual assassination, the timing is absurdly bad for Russia. The civilian collateral damage and general incompetent way this was handled is also strange but I suppose such slip ups can happen. I do not think they wanted this to become big news for other defectors to see, all the other suspicious deaths in the UK have been fairly quiet with both the media and official medical experts saying the cause of death were natural.

If I do remember well, the UK found out about polonium by accident. So the Russians did not want to make any noise back then either with Litvenenko.

Is there any benefit for the Russians to have done this now and in such a manner? I can not see one. They cleared him for a swap because he did not have any more information to harm Russia and all he was doing is working as consulting for the MI6, hardly a threat. It is my understanding the swapped spies are off limits, they are to be left alone. Families of spies should also be off limits in theory as I understand.

Why would they do it and do it in such a way? :confused:

The only explanation that would make any sense is to scare others not to defect but plenty of Russian officials died under suspicious circumstances in the last couple of years, I think everybody who matters already got this message, this only sens this message to the populous/ civilians.

Utterly dumb and or incompetent. Unless conspiracy but lets not venture there.
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Even assuming that you're right in thinking that Russian officials who might defect or pass information have already got the message that they will be killed if they do so, it still makes sense.

Firstly, it tells those people that they cannot escape. Killing them in Russia tells others that they should escape from Russia. Killing those who succeeded in escaping from Russia tells others that there is no escape.

Secondly, it's a display of power for Putin, which will strengthen his position inside Russia. It shows that Putin/Russia can break international laws and agreements and get away with it.

Thirdly, it's a display of the lack of power of the UK, which will weaken the UK globally. We can't offer protection even in our own country. This currently matters for Russia/Putin because the UK opposes them in some key ways. It's common practice to deal with enemies that way when outright war is impractical or undesirable.

As for being off limits, Putin/Russia has made it very clear that they don't give a damn about limits, agreements or anything else.
 
Danny75 said:
Providing samples shouldn't be a problem. This will provoke more questions.
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Yes, it will. Although I think it should be done through the OPCW rather than directly to Russia. This should be done openly, through the appropriate international organisation.
 
By the sounds of this woman on the news now the Russians have been doing this for some time, she has investigations on 14 other suspicious Russian deaths in London, all of them in the same circle of defectors critical of the Kremlin. Our Govt knows about all these but haven't done anything about it, she was citing security sources who had said to her how our Govt is scared of the Russians.

It's just this attack has been so public our Govt just can't ignore it and are being forced into taking action they haven't wanted to take.

So, again, i'm not sure if it was an intentional act to display Putins power or just a botched job, as the people who need to fear these assassinations are already fully aware they are happening.
 
It certainly looks like a botched job with the target surviving (at least for now). I think they fully intended for him to die in his home and not for there to be public collateral damage.
 
IceWind said:
I am honestly very sceptical about this and i tend to lean towards that it was not anything to do with the Russian Government.

During his term i would guess that he amounted quite a lot enemies across different countries many of them ex spies that probably do have access to old stock of the toxin involved.
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Exactly.

We are told over the years that the Russians are ruthless, clever, ace spy masters. So they used a nerve agents only manufactured in USSR decades ago (not any more), that could easily traced to them, to attack a double (gazillion given what we know) agent in a restaurant and over as many areas as possible?
Just 8 miles from Porton Down, Europe biggest WMD factory?

And take May's word for it?
All these agents can carry traces in which factory & country exactly were manufactured, why not give to the Russians the sample? Maybe because they might come back saying "you made it just down the road?"

What kind of intelligent people would believe the rhetoric that Russian agents are using USSR made nerve gas (which probably expired the last 30 years) in public space to kill an agent in a foreign country!!!!!


Let's remove the tunnel vision and see whats happening atm around us, and why this is a distraction.
On Sunday there are the Russian elections, which Putin will win.
Last three weeks, this Government is getting pounded badly by the EU over Brexit, (both internally and externally) clearly indicating that we go for no trade deal or transition period and call it heroic exit against our "enemies". Even if its going to cost to the tax payer alone £120bn, and £27bn annually to businesses. While in case of soft Brexit, UK will have to pay their obligations to the EU all way to 2064....
Brushing under the carpet last week news, that Mogg and many Tory MPs have vested interests in companies found in "emerging" economies, and will make tens of millions from a Brexit.

While in the mean time everything else in this country has collapsed or collapsing. From NHS to social services to construction (fell for first time since 2012, by a hefty 8%) and London property market 15% (which preludes a bigger fall across the country).

And was listening today the solution to the housing crisis. Recycling modified containers because "is green". Why that reminds me of shanty towns in South America?
 
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