Former Russian double agent seriously ill in Salisbury.

gettothechopper said:
What would Russia say if we give them samples? "Oh yeah that's the stuff we used in Salisbury alright"
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More to the point - what would the world (including some Russians) say about Britain doing the proper thing?

Why make it easy for the Kremlin to say: see? They just accuse without evidence and place impossible demands on us like that ultimatum.
 
Firestar_3x said:
Under article 9 they are not required to provide Russia with a sample, it really is as simple as that.
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"There is no why". Very deep.

"Did you do this or did someone else take it from your stockpile and use it?"

"Well, no to the first, as for the second, can we have a sample as is allowed in these here rules?"

"No, cause these other rules here don't require us to."

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.... "and time's up. You did it."

How can anyone have a reasonable engagement with that childish attitude. Impossible.
 
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My first thought on hearing of this was that the US has more to gain than Russia from such an assassination. My thoughts have not changed.
 
Our government has pretty much done nothing but lie since it got in and yet suddenly everyone is expected to believe anything may says, and yet the investigation is still running and she refuses to provide a sample of whatever it was?

Somehow Corbyn is the bad guy because he's not wildly flinging accusations around before anything is concluded (we must have knee jerk reactions god dammit!!!!) and wants a response based on clear evidence?. Do we not do evidence in a post truth society?

Our response must be decisive, proportionate and based on clear evidence. If the Government believe that it is still a possibility that Russia negligently lost control of a military-grade nerve agent, what action is being taken through the OPCW with our allies? I welcome the fact that the police are working with the OPCW.

Has the Prime Minister taken the necessary steps under the chemical weapons convention to make a formal request for evidence from the Russian Government under article IX(2)? How has she responded to the Russian Government’s request for a sample of the agent used in the Salisbury attack to run their own tests? Has high-resolution trace analysis been run on a sample of the nerve agent, and has that revealed any evidence as to the location of its production or the identity of its perpetrators?

Can the Prime Minister update the House on what conversations, if any, she has had with the Russian Government? While suspending planned high-level contacts, does she agree that is essential to retain a robust dialogue with Russia, in the interests of our own and wider international security?
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Sounds like complete common sense to me.

I notice she managed to remove free school dinners from tax credit families yesterday whilst no one was looking, that was convenient.

Shes also not appalled enough to stop selling depleted uranium to the Russians.

I honestly couldn't say for certain who I thought did this to be honest.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/brit...n-with-britain-on-spy-poisoning-idUKL8N1QW5AC

France want proof, but then why would anyone not?

**apologies for eclectic post**
 
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LOAM said:
Our government has pretty much done nothing but lie since it got in and yet suddenly everyone is expected to believe anything may says, and yet the investigation is still running and she refuses to provide a sample of whatever it was?

Somehow Corbyn is the bad guy because he's not wildly flinging accusations around before anything is concluded (we must have knee jerk reactions god dammit!!!!) and wants a response based on clear evidence?. Do we not do evidence in a post truth society?



Sounds like complete common sense to me.

I notice she managed to remove free school dinners from tax credit families yesterday whilst no one was looking, that was convenient.

Shes also not appalled enough to stop selling depleted uranium to the Russians.

I honestly couldn't say for certain who I thought did this to be honest.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/brit...n-with-britain-on-spy-poisoning-idUKL8N1QW5AC

France want proof, but then why would anyone not?

**apologies for eclectic post**
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this is exactly the kind of reason why May is sabre rattling. She is making noise about getting tough on Putin and mugging everyone off, no doubt the Daily Heil will report that May is the great Bear tamer tomorrow and gloss over the fact that she is sneakily taking stuff away from ordinary people under the cover of Putingate. The electorate in this country are well and truly morons for lapping this horse **** up
 
I must admit, I am starting to question May on this. I know Russia has a track record of aggression, but it's also not uncommon for May and her Cabinet to lie through their teeth to the electorate. It seems a bit peculiar that after Corbyn surges in the polls, she is hammered left and right over cuts to public services and local authorities and over the handling of Brexit, and forecast to lose big in the local elections, that she asks the public to trust her over the nerve agent being used by Russia without showing any evidence. The timing is just a little strange to somehow sudenly grow a backbone after looking like the weakest leader we have ever had, all timed with precision at the point where she looked her most weakest in every aspect of her leadership. Yeah I'm not buying it until I see more evidence, not after the dodgy Intel we had over wmd's in Iraq. Our governments seem to have a history of dodgy Intel, so I'm gonna wait and see what evidence is provided next.

The biggest problem with all or this, is that this isn't Iraq we messing around with, so I think it's best we get around the table and sort this mess out before this escalates out of control based on emotional responses, which so far it seems to be.
 
LOAM said:
I honestly couldn't say for certain who I thought did this to be honest.
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China did it, while we go to war in the West, China will go for the land grab in the Pacific they've been wanting to do

Seriously though, either Putin has the biggest balls on the world stage and gives no "f"'s when he wants to send a message to traitors of his beloved motherland, the Russians are really incompetent at killing people without leaving evidence (If the CIA, Mossad all the other alphabet agencies and even the Mafia can manage this, why can't Russia?), a 3rd party did it to create all this world stage trouble or it's our own security services in an attempt to change media focus from pressing matters like the Brexit.

Really we shouldn't be arguing about who did it but asking why was it done now and what the end goal was, Russia's response to it all is very interesting also it's almost political trolling
 
wildman said:
the problem May will have relying on her so called allies is this

Major_russian_gas_pipelines_to_europe.png


that is Gazproms distribution lines, countries they supply and future lines. Basically everything East of France and italy need Gazprom, and Gazprom is Russia, ergo they need Russia.
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I think I read that Europe gets 40% of its gas from Russia, and the Qatar-Turkey pipleline was/is supposed to circumvent that dependence (largest gas deposit sitting under the Persian Gulf), but Assad, protecting the interest of the Russians, said no.
 
The CT in here is brain damaging.

Do people actually think we arranged this as a hoax to keep TM in office? Haha oh good lord.
 
Minusorange said:
China did it, while we go to war in the West, China will go for the land grab in the Pacific they've been wanting to do

Seriously though, either Putin has the biggest balls on the world stage and gives no "f"'s when he wants to send a message to traitors of his beloved motherland, the Russians are really incompetent at killing people without leaving evidence (If the CIA, Mossad all the other alphabet agencies and even the Mafia can manage this, why can't Russia?), a 3rd party did it to create all this world stage trouble or it's our own security services in an attempt to change media focus from pressing matters like the Brexit.

Really we shouldn't be arguing about who did it but asking why was it done now and what the end goal was, Russia's response to it all is very interesting also it's almost political trolling
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Russia is very good at trolling the west, but they have an abysmal track record on things going smoothly. The number of incidents I hear about plane malfunctions within their own country, in Syria, using the wrong Intel and attacking the wrong people, makes me think it's entirely possible this is Russian incompetence. I mean for crying out loud, one of Putin's cabinet ministers was talking about exporting pork to Muslim countries on video, with no knowledge or understanding they do not eat pork.
 
kindai said:
The CT in here is brain damaging.

Do people actually think we arranged this as a hoax to keep TM in office? Haha oh good lord.
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Not necessarily no, but I think more evidence needs to be provided to restore public confidence, especially after the whole history of dodgy Intel over Iraq. Just trusting her won't do it.
 
kindai said:
The CT in here is brain damaging.

Do people actually think we arranged this as a hoax to keep TM in office? Haha oh good lord.
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no, the issue is that May is using this as a smoke screen to basically screw us all while we are looking else where, it's called bait and switch and weak governments do it all the time. I am not saying that the UK did this, I am saying that May is using it to cover up her pathetic, weak and complete lack of policy and direction for the UK so she can push the Tory ideals that most people disagree with because they are distracted. She will hide behind patriotic bull **** headlines from the Daily Heil about how she is taking it to Putin while doing sneaky **** like Loam pointed out that really hurts people in the UK that are amongst the poorest and least well off.
 
kindai said:
Do people actually think we arranged this as a hoax to keep TM in office? Haha oh good lord.
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Is it likely ? No
It is possible ? Sure, stranger things have happened

Let's not forget nobody has even died from this botched assassination attempt that a large majority are happy to blame Russia on the evidence of "They created the nerve agent 30 years ago so it MUST be them"

There's absolutely nothing wrong though with throwing theories around on why and who did it as long as people acknowledge them as theories and not fact, just like it's only a theory that Russia did it because we've seen very little on facts from all of this apart from the media regurgitating May's narrative.
 
I think the issue also is the nonsense we know that the tabloids are known for when it comes to credibility on political issues, which are very much biased to the government's favour. So to actually read any alternative views on the situation you need to discuss it with other people on some sort of social platform or look elsewhere to actually get to the real nitty-gritty info on what the facts are, but even this is not always credible information. This troubles me, because then credibility is put into question on both sides, with each side pointing the finger, making it very difficult to know who or what to believe, and equally there will always be who believe unquestionably everything they read in the tabloids or on social media. So there is no winner really. Basically we are screwed.
 
ubersonic said:
We could potentially manufacture it, the issues however would be that to match the Soviet strains we would have to manufacture it in Uzbekistan at a facility the USA decommissioned/decontaminated for them nearly two decades ago, and AFAIK breed it from samples created by the USSR which have either been destroyed or are under lock and key in Russia.

So yeah we could make it, but it would be very easy to tell it was our own recipe.
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It's a chemical weapon, not a biological one, so why would it need breeding?

How would someone differentiate between a chemical made in Uzbekistan and the same chemical made somewhere else?
 
Angilion said:
It's a chemical weapon, not a biological one, so why would it need breeding?

How would someone differentiate between a chemical made in Uzbekistan and the same chemical made somewhere else?
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i'm guessing it probably isn't the chemical itself but the inpurities contained within, not sure how you'd tell which lab though, just which process used to make it and the person behind it.
 
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