Poll: General election voting round 4

[peige]

D.P. has been over this fallacy to death. The point is that immigrants don't just come and "eat" - to use your metaphor they actually come and start working in the kitchen (they contribute more to society than they take in public services).

Agreed, I employee a Hungarian and a Slovakian myself on fully skilled wages, but the fact that public services are overwhelmed is not something linked to if they work or not, its linked to not enough capacity for the current population. Meanwhile it continues at unchecked levels.

This is my issue with it. To go back to my analogy, if they come on-board to eat or not, they are still on a boat that isn't built to hold them with no idea how many more will be boarding.

 

[eatcustard]

D.P. has been over this fallacy to death. The point is that immigrants don't just come and "eat" - to use your metaphor they actually come and start working in the kitchen (they contribute more to society than they take in public services).

But at a cost to the rest of us, in lower wages, lack of jobs, due to, its cheaper to employ an East Euro on minimum wage than pay a living wage to a Brit.

Also the cost on the NHS, schools, lack of houses, etc, etc, not to forget we are not a big country.

Good in theory to allow them in but in practice it causes more problems down the line.

 

[darkgen]

It is, but that in itself isn't a bad thing, because it's bilateral, so as long as the countries with free movement are similar enough there's no mass movement of people.

This is the crux of the matter. Net migration is seen as the nefarious bogeyman. Ultimately everything else is just a numbers game.

 

[ubersonic]

If you say so, but when every public service is overloaded then how can you allow more to rely on it, regardless of why its overloaded?

Because, EU immigrants on average are a net contributor to the UK economy, they put in much more than they take out (more in fact than the average native). By comparison a newborn baby contributes nothing for at least fifteen years, not to mention they require state funding and will take a potential contributor out of service. Reducing EU immigration would actually be a net detriment to the UK because the country would lose out. It's all well to say we would need less houses, lower NHS load, etc but we would also be losing people who help fund the NHS/etc.

The idea that lowering immigration would help with the overloading is a fallacy because it would lower load but it would lower the ability to deal with the load by more.

 

[scorza]

D.P. has been over this fallacy to death. The point is that immigrants don't just come and "eat" - to use your metaphor they actually come and start working in the kitchen (they contribute more to society than they take in public services).

Problem is that D.P. is wrong in literally every post he makes, so you know you're wrong when you find yourself on the same side as him. FYI this point is based on a widely criticised academic report, probably by the same people that scientifically proved that only 13,000 Polish immigrants would come to the UK post 2001.

 

[robgmun]

Wow, a positive UKIP Councillor story in the paper for a change:

UKIP Councillor rescues family in Gosport blaze drama

http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/lo...scues-family-in-gosport-blaze-drama-1-6709584

 

[ubersonic]

Wow, a positive UKIP Councillor story in the paper for a change:

I liked this bit:

Mr Bergin – a Ukip councillor at Gosport Borough Council – scooped up the youngest boy, four, and dashed out the house leading a second boy, 16, to safety with his parents as flames took hold.

One outside he realised the child was an immigrant and began carrying him back inside.

--------------

Jokes aside, well done that man

 

[robgmun]

What the matter with you, you just can't help yourself

 

[peige]

The idea that lowering immigration would help with the overloading is a fallacy because it would lower load but it would lower the ability to deal with the load by more.

But its not that is it, great, lots of people putting more tax into the system but the services to support them don't just pop out of thin air, they take years to construct and come into play.
You have to control it, its just common sense.

 

[platypus]

Think it will be a Labour vote for me. I think the way Cameron has run this election I don't think he actually wants to win!
Probably already got a nice lucrative job lined up somewhere.

I think the Conservative campaign has been hit hardest by the fact that an improving economy hasn't been the vote winner they thought it would be; people don't seem interested.

 

[eatcustard]

What the matter with you, you just can't help yourself

He is a typical looney left voter, cant praise anyone one who is to the right, only shout racist when they cant win an argument.


Good to see the man help the family out, I doubt the BBC will say anything about it.

 

[ubersonic]

What the matter with you, you just can't help yourself

At least I made it clear I was joking and applauded the man.

To be fair, the tabloids will probably report: "A UKIP member saw a family eating Chinese food and then smashed their windows before breaking into their house with a hammer, he forcibly ordered the family out into the street, the house burned down, police have yet to make any arrest".

Lol.

 

[Mr Jack]

UKIP Councillor rescues family in Gosport blaze drama

Well done that man

 

[ubersonic]

But its not that is it, great, lots of people putting more tax into the system but the services to support them don't just pop out of thin air, they take years to construct and come into play.

This country doesn't have the services to support itself, it relies on the fact that nobody will want them at once. An example is that I pay £7 a month for RAC membership and in the time I have been a member I have cost them much more than I have paid but this is offset by the people who pay but don't need them. Likewise the people contributing to the system pay for those who take out, immigrants pay more than they take out, the are ~4 new babies for every new immigrant, they need to take out and need somebody to pay for them, this is why cutting immigration would actually affect services negatively (not to mention the average immigrant is a net contributor, and more so than a native adult anyway).

 

[ubersonic]

He is a typical looney left voter, cant praise anyone one who is to the right

well done that man

 

[peige]

This country doesn't have the services to support itself, it relies on the fact that nobody will want them at once. An example is that I pay £7 a month for RAC membership and in the time I have been a member I have cost them much more than I have paid but this is offset by the people who pay but don't need them. Likewise the people contributing to the system pay for those who take out, immigrants pay more than they take out, the are ~4 new babies for every new immigrant, they need to take out and need somebody to pay for them, this is why cutting immigration would actually affect services negatively (not to mention the average immigrant is a net contributor, and more so than a native adult anyway).

Thats how every service works, if we all had a car crash tomorrow and ended up in hospital the insurance and health services would be in ruin.
The services exist at a capacity that works for the population, more population means you need more services which we don't have *at the moment* If you want to benefit from more people here then the support needs to be built for them. They don't just live in boxes, put nothing in a bin and school children themselves do they.
To clarify, I am not against immigration but I am against uncontrolled immigration.

 

[scorza]

I think the Conservative campaign has been hit hardest by the fact that an improving economy hasn't been the vote winner they thought it would be; people don't seem interested.

I personally think they shot themselves in the foot when they announced £24bn worth of unfunded public spending, at the same time the budget was preparing everyone for massive public spending cuts after the election. It doesn't make any sense at all.

 

[ubersonic]

The services exist at a capacity that works for the population, more population means you need more services which we don't have *at the moment* If you want to benefit from more people here then the support needs to be built for them.

This is the point I am making, immigrants are net contributors, they put in to the system more than they take out, the is one immigrant added to the population for every four new babies*. We NEED immigration to reduce the cost of the new services which are required anyway. Reducing immigration will reduce the funding for new services/infrastructure more than it will reduce the demand for it.


*Rounded to the nearest whole baby, which is not something I expected to type today.

 

[Sankari]

Wow, a positive UKIP Councillor story in the paper for a change:

UKIP Councillor rescues family in Gosport blaze drama

http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/lo...scues-family-in-gosport-blaze-drama-1-6709584

‘I was a bit bolshie saying “get out”. Dad grabbed one of the kids, I got the other.’

Mr Bergin has now been expelled from UKIP. A spokesman for Nigel Farage explained, ‘Mr Bergin did not divulge his Bolshevik sympathies when he joined our party.’

 

[ubersonic]

I think the Conservative campaign has been hit hardest by the fact that an improving economy hasn't been the vote winner they thought it would be; people don't seem interested.

The biggest issue I have seen with this is that the media report that the economy will go into high gear in the next few years regardless of who is in power. Some of my friends actually think it will be better to have Labour in power when the money comes in as they will spend more and save less (I id you not). I have tried pointing out that's how they got us into this mess in the first place but they don't want to hear it as the problems wont be felt for a decade.