Poll: General election voting round 4

[delta0]

The economy will cycle and crash again. Ramping and spending more just amplifies the extremes. Best to iron them out to be flatter. Labour will ramp up spending (although last I saw they were cutting NHS more than Conservatives). The expenditure will be wasteful. Better to let private industry drive the recovery and just provide the best environment for them to do that. Conservatives will be the only ones able to do this the best.

 

[peige]

This is the point I am making, immigrants are net contributors, they put in to the system more than they take out, the is one immigrant added to the population for every four new babies*. We NEED immigration to reduce the cost of the new services which are required anyway. Reducing immigration will reduce the funding for new services/infrastructure more than it will reduce the demand for it.
*Rounded to the nearest whole baby, which is not something I expected to type today.

Well then we disagree about the order in which these things should happen, I say sort out the capacity first then fill it or at the very least allow it to catch up with demand, you say allow the money to make things happen.
The problem is that it takes years for capacity to increase and we already have how many new people here? You can't just let the situation run out of control and the services play catchup, what are they even playing catchup to, what number are we aiming at?!

 

[ubersonic]

The problem is that it takes years for capacity to increase and we already have how many new people here?

This is the thing you are missing, immigration makes it easier for the services to play catchup, they are a net boost to the economy, they pay in more than they take out (unlike a baby, a house mother, etc). Unless you are planning to ban pregnancy while the services catch up and increase capacity then reducing immigration will be detrimental to that catchup and capacity increase.

 

[Mr Jack]

I see the Tory's small business letter is already in trouble due to various signatories not running small businesses and others asking to be removed.

(That link also contains an accusation about the letter being authored by Tory HQ but I think that's unfair as all the metadata shows is who put the letter together in its .pdf form)

 

[panthro]

1 person is voting for the Respect party. I can't respect that.

 

[Schlong&Stable]

It is, but that in itself isn't a bad thing, because it's bilateral, so as long as the countries with free movement are similar enough there's no mass movement of people.

The argument recently is that people in the newest additions in Eastern Europe are being drawn to wealthier countries without the reciprocal movement (there are some reasons to move to e.g. Croatia, but for most they're not that compelling). We have seen some, but nowhere near the extent that was "predicted" by UKIP:


http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/aug/28/uk-net-migration-soars-to-243000-theresa-may (2014)

So unless kippers can reconcile "it's the Eastern Europeans!" with the fact that it's not, all this chatter about "uncontrolled migration from Eastern Europe" is crap. Or are ukippers suggesting Italian immigrants are taking our jerbs now?



D.P. has been over this fallacy to death. The point is that immigrants don't just come and "eat" - to use your metaphor they actually come and start working in the kitchen (they contribute more to society than they take in public services).

This whole argument hinges on a study which has been roundly criticised. Here are the actual headline facts -

#1 Non-EU immigrants do not make a net contribution.
#2 EU immigrants MAY at best make a small (£5bn) net contribution.
#3 Both of these values are best case scenarios as the study did not fully cost immigrants or consider the long term implications.

The reality is that most immigrants bring little of value to the British economy. We pay out vastly more in foreign aid than we get back from immigrants. Plus, the long term social and economic impact is going to be very damaging for actual British people.

I'm all in favour of allowing in high skilled workers from nations with a similar economic level and cultural background as our own. There is nothing beneficial in bringing in every tim, dick and harry.

 

[Sankari]

I see the Tory's small business letter is already in trouble due to various signatories not running small businesses and others asking to be removed.

(That link also contains an accusation about the letter being authored by Tory HQ but I think that's unfair as all the metadata shows is who put the letter together in its .pdf form)

It was an idiotic stunt, everyone knows the Tories aren't interested in small businesses.

 

[MrMoonX]

I see the Tory's small business letter is already in trouble due to various signatories not running small businesses and others asking to be removed.

(That link also contains an accusation about the letter being authored by Tory HQ but I think that's unfair as all the metadata shows is who put the letter together in its .pdf form)

Yeah basically CCHQ wrote the letter and got people to sign up half of which aren't small businesses, it's basically a cheap stunt that he gone wrong and they won't own up

 

[StriderX]

The economy will cycle and crash again. Ramping and spending more just amplifies the extremes. Best to iron them out to be flatter. Labour will ramp up spending (although last I saw they were cutting NHS more than Conservatives). The expenditure will be wasteful. Better to let private industry drive the recovery and just provide the best environment for them to do that. Conservatives will be the only ones able to do this the best.

Private industry...DID drive the recovery, the governments meddling is a myth at this point.

 

[delta0]

Private industry...DID drive the recovery, the governments meddling is a myth at this point.

Exactly how it should be. The government should ensure the environment allows this.

 

[robgmun]

Just met my local UKIP MP candidate and had a long chat, very interesting experiences he had while out and about canvassing. Basically UKIP support are very much in clustered areas within the constituency. Not under any illusions to win but believes he will come in a strong second.

 

[gobbo]

The reality is that most immigrants bring little of value to the British economy.

Any sources to back that up? Whilst I will agree some immigrants don't bring any value at all, and we'd be better off without some them, I don't think it's fair to say that applies to most.

 

[Sankari]

Not under any illusions to win but believes he will come in a strong second.

That's more than can be said for the party.

 

[robgmun]

That's more than can be said for the party.

It's a good setup for 2020 due to FPTP system

 

[Sankari]

It's a good setup for 2020 due to FPTP system

 

[robgmun]

Nice try, but you're making yourself look a little silly now

 

[player]

1 person is voting for the Respect party. I can't respect that.

George Galloway Posts here?

 

[robgmun]

DP was being foolish saying that UKIP MEP's where being treasonous, but i believe George Galloway is the closest to being a traitor to this country. People like him get wet with the idea of Sharia law being implemented in the UK

 

[peige]

This is the thing you are missing, immigration makes it easier for the services to play catchup, they are a net boost to the economy, they pay in more than they take out (unlike a baby, a house mother, etc). Unless you are planning to ban pregnancy while the services catch up and increase capacity then reducing immigration will be detrimental to that catchup and capacity increase.

I think we are missing each others point here, you can't catchup with an unknown target that keeps moving.
The point about added tax revenue is given (all be it under some doubt here) but the point about playing catch up stands for me.

 

[ubersonic]

DP was being foolish saying that UKIP MEP's where being treasonous

I dunno, treason is defined as the action of betraying someone or something and it is arguable that Nigel Farage betrayed his country and the people he was supposed to be representing when he basically walked into the European parliament, insulted everyone, told them their countries sucked and then left (this was back in 2010, just after he stood down as UKIP leader to run for election as an MP, coming third).