German Grand Prix 2010, Hockenheimring Circuit - Race 11/19

They shouldn't ban team orders, as it doesn't always make sense (i.e. if one member is way ahead), instead they should create a solid criteria (i.e. if one driver is x number of points available, then team orders can be given). I'm not a fan of team orders, but from Ferrari's point of view it was sensible, there was a chance that vettle could have caught and passed both of them without Alonso going in front...

The thing that kills it for me is the obvious lies... when Alonso was describing how he 'over took' Massa.... wow - uncomfortable.
 
Dimi said:
Hypocrisy everywhere i turn too, The net/television and radio. (probaly a bunch of it in the newspapers aswell)

Kimi won the 2007 championship with Massa's help, Even remember him letting Kimi past @ a point in a race.

Hamilton won the same race (Germany) back in 2008 with Heikki's help and back in 2008 again, This time in China Kimi let Massa through.

Why wasn't anything said back then?
The loons who act as if it's the first time team orders have happened ever since 2002 are a joke.
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Exactly.

Personally, I think most of the general F1 viewing public are a little gullible if they actually beleive that team-orders do not happen anymore. Of course they do...there is far too much money riding on championships, race wins, etc. In any team sport there, orders/decisions come from the top...why should an F1 team be any different?

If you really want to abolish team orders, the best thing to limit each team to a single car.

The only mistake that Ferrari made today, is that that collectively, they made the team order, obvious and have brought unwanted attention to F1. This unwanted attention is what Ferrari should be made to pay for...not the actual team order itself.

Had Ferrari cleverly orchestrated the move and made it less obvious, the FIA would probably never have had an issue.
 
Lol at EJ, "SHOW US THE TIMES, PROVE IT"..

Even I could see that Alonso was quicker. At one point Alonso dropped 3 seconds or so back from Massa, Massa magically taking 1 second a lap out of him. Within 6-7 laps or so, Alonso was sniffing his backside again. No proof, Eddie?
 
I wonder how the bookies feel paying out on an Alonso win? Most other sports now deplore match fixing, it seems F1 is behind the times.
 
JUMPURS said:
Ohhh so 'no team orders' which are there to stop changing the results of a race, don't apply if it means changing the results of the WDC? How does that even make sense?

The rule is either there for every one in every race despite track position, WDC position etc, or it isn't.
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Thats why I said the other driver shouldn't need to be 'ordered' to change position. 'Team orders' are completely different to the driver letting someone past, why do you think Ferrari have tried to change thier story so it seems like Massa made the decision for himself. Therefore it isn't a TEAM ORDER!
 
Goksly said:
The thing that kills it for me is the obvious lies... when Alonso was describing how he 'over took' Massa.... wow - uncomfortable.
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Smedley's was the worst lie. I think it would've sounded more convincing had he also said that he had witnessed a pig flying, earlier in the day.
 
So the result stands and the Motorsport Council will have a meeting about it in September when the furor has died down and where they'll probably just slap Ferrari on the wrist.
 
sunama said:
Smedley's was the worst lie. I think it would've sounded more convincing had he also said that he had witnessed a pig flying, earlier in the day.
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No Smedley was a guy doing what he was told. He messed up with what he said over the radio, but he had to lie else he would be out of a job. Alonso should have just said he didn't know what happened / went passed. He didn't have to go into detail about Massa making a mistake etc.
 
Dimi said:
Kimi won the 2007 championship with Massa's help, Even remember him letting Kimi past @ a point in a race.
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In a championship that was already forever tainted by FIA interventions. The fact that Ferrari conducted a team order in that race barely registered on the scale of interference that went on that year.

Hamilton won the same race (Germany) back in 2008 with Heikki's help and back in 2008 again, This time in China Kimi let Massa through.
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Not really the same. Heikki was in a low position. It wasn't a swap between 1st and 2nd places.

Why wasn't anything said back then?
The loons who act as if it's the first time team orders have happened ever since 2002 are a joke.
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Nothing was said because it appears to have been only Austria 2002 and Germany 2010 that have left a sour taste in fans mouths. There is a certain recipe for what constitutes a souring "team order" by fans and the FIA needs to get whatever comprises this recipe onto paper so it can be made formal in the 2011 regulations.
 
JoeMango said:
Thats why I said the other driver shouldn't need to be 'ordered' to change position. 'Team orders' are completely different to the driver letting someone past, why do you think Ferrari have tried to change thier story so it seems like Massa made the decision for himself. Therefore it isn't a TEAM ORDER!
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How is it different? Massa was told Alonso was quicker, so he let him through.
 
el_dazza said:
So? Still team orders, right?
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Not in my view. There is no evidence that McLaren asked him to let Hamilton through. Heikki doesn't have an ego problem. The team may have informed him that Hamilton's strategy would be compromised and then he decided to let him pass. Likewise the points situation between Heikki and Lewis at the time was far far more clear cut than it is with the two Ferrari drivers at the moment.
 
The issue here is the dumb way in which Ferrari conveyed the command to Massa. Other teams are less blatant and therefore get away with it without all this fuss. People who think there have been no team orders in F1 since 2002 are deluded.

Anyway, nice result for Ferrari. Good to see that their practice pace was indeed genuine.
 
JUMPURS said:
Ahh that's ok then.

For future reference, can you let me know what position a team order swap is allowed? Is it everything below 3? 6? 15? I can't seem to find in the rules the 'it's ok if it isn't for 1st place' clause.
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Which is pretty much what I was alluding to. There is a 'recipe' in F1 fans minds as to what constitutes an illegal team order. Austria 2002 and Germany 2010 (and Singapore 2008) have proven to be the only recent ones that scored particularly well with fans.
 
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