German Grand Prix 2010, Hockenheimring Circuit - Race 11/19

[Alibaba99]

Ahh that's ok then.

For future reference, can you let me know what position a team order swap is allowed? Is it everything below 3? 6? 15? I can't seem to find in the rules the 'it's ok if it isn't for 1st place' clause.

I don't think the issue is with the actual positions that are swapped but how they influence the race. Todays actions were a blatant swap for the lead and as such leaves a sour taste in the mouth. Massa had done nothing wrong, got a good start and was still leading after the pitstop.

Lewis and Heikkis swap was at an early stage of the race and both drivers were on different strategies. By allowing the faster driver through with minimum time lost it would allow him to make best use of the strategy, didn't compromise Heikkis race and gave the team the best chance of winning the race.

 

[dannyjo22]

Ferrari should really have made the switch in the pitstops and I'm sure they will in the future. If I ran ferrari smedley would be getting reamed tommorow and be looking for a new job next year. I understand he wasn't happy with the decision but he would already have been briefed the score, if he didn't like what goes on at ferrari he should leave, not air it in public which has caused the fuss.

If he is that out raged he should hand his notice in today.

 

[MarcLister]

Ferrari should really have made the switch in the pitstops and I'm sure they will in the future. If I ran ferrari smedley would be getting reamed tommorow and be looking for a new job next year. I understand he wasn't happy with the decision but he would already have been briefed the score, if he didn't like what goes on at ferrari he should leave, not air it in public which has caused the fuss.

If he is that out raged he should hand his notice in today.

I've seen a 1 minute 23 second interview of Smedley by Ted Kravitz and Smedley didn't seem that upset. Is there another interview where he seems more angry with the instructions he was forced to radio to Massa?

After Alonso took 1st Brundle asked DC his opinion and I think it was Brundle again who asked who at McLaren radioed DC to get him to move over for Hakkinen. DC said it was Dave Ryan, the then team manager at McLaren. So why are Ferrari getting Massa's engineer to give the instruction when, if it is a team decision to swap the leading pair around, it should be the team manager or the team principal?

 

[NathanE]

I would like to see Smeadley in silver (and rocket red) at some point.

 

[Nexus]

I've seen a 1 minute 23 second interview of Smedley by Ted Kravitz and Smedley didn't seem that upset. Is there another interview where he seems more angry with the instructions he was forced to radio to Massa?

After Alonso took 1st Brundle asked DC his opinion and I think it was Brundle again who asked who at McLaren radioed DC to get him to move over for Hakkinen. DC said it was Dave Ryan, the then team manager at McLaren. So why are Ferrari getting Massa's engineer to give the instruction when, if it is a team decision to swap the leading pair around, it should be the team manager or the team principal?

Yeah, also pointed out by Eddie Jordan on the F1 Forum that when he made a team order, such as with R.Schumacher & Hill he personally delivered the message to the drivers over the Radios. It's a decision by the team boss, not by the engineer who has a personal affiliation to their driver.

In this case here with Ferrari, they clearly had Masa's race engineer deliver the message because it would be even more obvious if the team manger came over the radio to deliver 'the coded message'.

I've got to agree with a lot of what has been said about them underestimating how sharp the people who watch Formula 1 are, this was never going to pull the wool over our eyes.

 

[mmj_uk]

I wonder what the response would be in football if Roman Abramovich bought some more Premiership clubs so that they could throw the game whenever they played Chelsea?

Blackpool, Wigan & Wolves shouldn't be too expensive, a guaranteed 18pts per season and the big players can be rested.

 

[JRS]

Question.

On a scale of 1-10, 1 being minor and 10 being the worst thing since 'Big Brother' arrived on television, how do we rate these two scenarios?

1) A team has both it's drivers first and second in a race, and obliquely orders the one up front to let the other guy through as he's higher in the championship table.
2) A team had one of it's drivers throw his car into a wall in order to bring the safety car out, thus ensuring a win for the other driver in the team.

And remind me again what punishment Renault received for the minor indiscretion I just described in point 2)? Sorry, couldn't quite hear that...."**** all" you say? Well, fancy that....

We can all see what will happen here. The WMSC will convene. Ferrari will be hauled up for bringing the sport into disrepute by employing team orders. The verdict will go one of two ways.

They could find the team not quilty. Cue the wailing and squeaky cries of "FERRARI INTERNATIONAL ASSISTANCE!!!oneoneoneeleven". References would be made to Jean Todt having worked for Ferrari in the past. Some irrational comments about how it's all Bernie Ecclestone's fault would be aired.

Or they could find the team guilty. And everyone would (rather conveniently) forget this fact when Ferrari do something wrong again, instead choosing to bring on the wailing and squeaky cries of "FERRARI INTERNATIONAL ASSISTANCE!!!oneoneoneeleven" pre-emptively.

*sigh*


**


Another question.

Where was this level of outrage when Senna handed a victory to Berger? Or Peter Collins handed his car to Juan Manuel Fangio to go and win the title?

Thing is, no-one minded. Not on this level. When Senna gave Berger a win it was seen as a reward for backing him up all year. When Fangio secured the '56 title in Collins' car, Peter was seen as a very sporting chap who knew that he would get another shot at the title (and unfortunately, he didn't ).

Something happened before Austria 2002 which saw this team order stuff blow up but good. McLaren had engineered the '98 Aussie GP result in favour of Mika. Ferrari had swapped Schumacher and Rubens at a race in 2001 (though not for the race win, I believe it was for 2nd or 3rd). But when we got to Austria 2002, and Ferrari did what they did (quite un-necessarily, and let's see how many of you remember me posting that here in future threads....), suddenly everyone is up in arms.

What did it, guys? Team orders were acceptable in 1998, why weren't they in 2002? Sure, they've been

banned (except when we choose let it go)

since that Austrian GP, but what the hell happened between those two races? Was it just the fact that a team with an obviously superior car (and let's face it, the F2002 was epic - fastest F1 car ever according to some sources) had felt the need to help out it's number 1 driver that grated? Really?

Please note, for the thickies out there (I'm looking at you sunama, if you actually manage to read this post ) - I'm not condoning what Ferrari did today. If Alonso is oh-so-superior to Massa, then he should have just overtaken him. Shouldn't have needed the team to pull Massa over, right?



***edit***

Christ, sorry for the "Wall O' Text" there guys. Hadn't realised that I'd typed so much. I shall blame the drink

 

[Glaucus]

Just finished watching the race, what a disgrace.
We are aware team orders are used, but that was a clear team order with no question. Yet again FIA ignoring it's own rules and being inconsistency.

Either get rid of it or punish.

Just have towait and see if World Motor Sport Council. will have the balls and follow rules./

 

[realscot]

I'm like Coulthard, I don't see the big deal. I mean at the end of the day the only person its affected is Massa, and I do feel for the guy, but he knew the second Alonso signed for Ferrari he would be number 2 should that decision ever come. This will all be brought back up at the end of the season too if Alonso manages to spoil someones championship by 5 points. Other than that does it really matter? Ok so 2 red cars won, do we care which one? This is just going to be another media driven circus and yes some fans will feel cheated but I honestly don't think the race would have been any more exciting should "team orders" not have been used.
To be honest the decision made to fine ferrari was basically a knee jerk reaction to the pressure to do something about it, as already mentioned, if it wasn't for the lead we wouldn't be discussing it now. Would we even notice if the virgin racing cars swapped places?

 

[JRS]

I'm like Coulthard, I don't see the big deal.

And of all people, DC ought to know about team orders....

 

[Glaucus]

I'm like Coulthard, I don't see the big deal. I mean at the end of the day the only person its affected is Massa, ?

What?

It has affected bets
It has affected the sport
It has affected viewers
It has affected the championship

Either it is against the rules or not. Under 39.1 it is clearly against the rules and so has to be dealt with.

To be honest the decision made to fine Ferrari was basically a knee jerk reaction to the pressure to do something about it, as already mentioned, if it wasn't for the lead we wouldn't be discussing it now.

It is knee jerk, but for the other reason. It is clearly against rules and is a knee jerk reaction to not black flag a team.

 

[mmj_uk]

I'm like Coulthard, I don't see the big deal. I mean at the end of the day the only person its affected is Massa,

It affects the whole drivers championship, if Alonso wins it by 2-3pts come the end of the season then whoever finishes second will have been robbed of the title.

 

[dalin80]

next time SD needs to grow a spine and tell massa himself that he is never going to win anything again.

 

[dannyjo22]

JRS I really don't know when the feigned disgust started at team orders. I don't believe it started with ferrari, I remember a lot of people being upset after DC moved over, which was more ridiculous than today.

Imagine them calling hamilton to tell him, sorry but we messed up Jenson pitstop he would have won if we hadn't mucked up, please let him through.

Mclaren pretty much had a team order that the first driver into the first cormer won the race.

People have it in their heads that its now disgusting unless of course it's for the championship.

Didn't HHF let JV through at Jerez as well IIRC.

What I want to see more than anything is Jenson move over at the last race to let hamilton win to take the title, to see how little crying there is about team orders. After all people will still have bet on the outcome of the race. Yet that will be fine because it's for the title.

They all do it and they still lie about not doing it, EJ spouted bile after bile today only then to be shown up by gascoigne as a liar.

 

[Glaucus]

Started 2002 when there was a massive public outcry. That is why the rule was implemented.

whether you agree with team orders or not, is pretty much irrelevant. It is against the rules and FIA yet again being inconsistent.

Look what McLaren got for lying to the stewards.

 

[JRS]

Look what McLaren got for lying to the stewards.

And look what Renault (didn't) get for ordering a driver to crash. *shrug*

We can pick out examples all day. The facts remain:

1) Ferrari employed team orders today, obliquely maybe but definitely team orders.
2) The WMSC are going to convene over it at some point in the near future.
3) And no matter which way they call it, my blood pressure is going to skyrocket as even a "guilty!!!!" verdict won't stop people (and sunama) believing that the FIA's sole purpose in life is to aid Ferrari.

 

[Glaucus]

Totally agree on all 3 accounts.
Why can't FIA just grow a spine, I really thought introducing drivers would help as well as press backlash, but it hasn't. All I want is FIA to follow the rules THEY set out and be consistent with punishments.

Although I think what Renault got was fair ish.

I don't think a team should be killed of, however I do think all management and any one involved should be and if they can find new management/sponsors then they should be allowed to race on probation. If caught in the championship year all points should be stripped. But then the life time ban was overturned, so yet again wrecking the process.

Also going to be away all next weekend, so again there will be no updates on the OP until late Sunday.

 

[sunama]

I've got to agree with a lot of what has been said about them underestimating how sharp the people who watch Formula 1 are, this was never going to pull the wool over our eyes.

On the contrary. It would appear that most F1 followers don't seem to know that team-orders exist. The fact that the team order was on blatant display today has taken them totally by surprise and shows just how gullible they were/are.

A lot of F1 fans are truly gullible and it is quite possible that if Ferrari keep chanting the mantra, "This was not a team order, this was Massa's decision, which he took by himself", a lot of these gullible folk will go back into their cocoon and go on believing that team orders don't actually exist and that.

The other blatant team orders which were issued this year were in Turkey, where RBR told Webber's engineer to tell Webber to let Vettel through (of course this message was never passed on), which resulted in Vettel believing Webber was not going to fight the overtake, (which he did) and the resulting crash. The other blatant team order happened in the same race, when Button, was told to "conserve fuel". At the same time Hamilton was told that Button would not attempt an overtake. Unfortunately, Button didnt follow the order and attempted the overtake, which got Hamilton riled up and forced him to take the position back, aggressively. After this, McLaren immedately re-issued the team-order to Button, "conserve fuel...conserve fuel", only this time, more assertively. Button finally responded and dropped back.

In all of the 3 cases - Ferrari, McLaren, RBR - the outcome of the race was being manipulated. The only difference was that Ferrari made it too obvious and the gullible F1 fans understood..."Awww..that's a team order".

What we saw today, was no worse than what RBR and McLaren did in Turkey.

Furthermore, there are probably many other instances of team orders which have been given this year, but have passed through the radar undetected.

Team orders cannot be stopped or prevented. F1 fans must understand this.

 

[Emlyn_Dewar]

I don't see the big deal about the gambling front...

A) It's gambling, you're taking risks
B) It's F1... How many races have had results declared after the race? Or decisions made where people don't agree?
You're betting on the no.2 driver, you've taken your chances. Are the folks who had Vettel on to win whining that Ferrari should be thrown out? (Well, they probably are but... Pfft)

Can't handle losing bets in one of the most inconsistant sports around? Don't ******* put money on it then...

You hear it all the time that specific teams/drivers/people are throwing the toys out. The worst culprits for it are the F1 fans. Anything for a good moan.

 

[Glaucus]

On the contrary. It would that most F1 followers don't seem to know that team-orders exist. The fact that the team order was on blatant display today has taken them totally by surprise and shows just how gullible they were/are.

Not at all, everyone knows team orders happen to some extent. We are also fully aware they are against the rules. Hence team orders are so limited and undercover. It is the same as court of law, fia have to be able to prove team orders, in most cases this is not possible, this one it is very easy.

The fact it was blatant team orders with no punishment is disgraceful.

As I have said it makes no difference what you think, rules are set in place and those rules have been broken in a clear and deliberate way.

The other blatant team orders which were issued this year were in Turkey, where RBR told Webber's engineer to tell Webber to let Vettel through (of course this message was never passed on),

Never aired or publicly stated, so you have no idea if that actually happened, even if that was the correct state of affairs. Again this can not be proven and as such FIA can not take action.