German Grand Prix 2010, Hockenheimring Circuit - Race 11/19

3) And no matter which way they call it, my blood pressure is going to skyrocket as even a "guilty!!!!" verdict won't stop people (and sunama) believing that the FIA's sole purpose in life is to aid Ferrari.

How about we just wait to see what the verdict is?

IMO Ferrari should not be given any punishment, BUT, given the media outcry, the FIA must be seen to be doing something about what happened (even though everybody in F1 (except some gullible fans) knows that team orders come into play, in virtually single every race).

If anything Ferrari should be punished not for issuing team orders, but for executing the order is such an obvious manner.

Smedley really didnt help matters today, especially when he apologised to Massa over the radio. Obviously Massa wanted to make it look obvious, so the world knew that he was the real winner today (fair enough), but Smedley...that guy has no excuse.
 
While everyone is harping on about Ferrari:

What about McLaren, every time Button is pressuring Hamilton, suddenly instructing both drivers - or sometimes only Button - to save fuel? More than a bit of a coincidence there.

What Ferrari did wasn't nice but I fully support it. They need to look after themselves and their best chance for the title. Frankly, Massa should have let Alonso by earlier and we heard about Dyer telling Domenicali to wait on giving such an instruction to see what would happen. Massa opened up a 3s lead and the decision wouldn't have come. Then Massa, who shouldn't have needed that first "hurry up" message from Smedley to get his act together, saw that lead eaten away by the clearly faster Alonso.

Other teams have done the same and worse but as Ferrari don't have strong links to Britain (drivers, staff members in particular positions etc.) they get vilified in the British media.

Christian Horner was one to talk today. Does he not remember what he did two weeks ago?
 
IMO Ferrari should not be given any punishment,

Why they clearly broke the rules?
something that has not happened this year, despite you banging ion about it. there are appeal courts and a 1001 top paid lawyers. No proof no FIA decisions, something I support. If FIA just start taking action with no evidence it is a vast.


There are many rules in FIA I disagree with, doesn't mean I don't think teams braking those rules in a provable fashion, should not be punished.

What about McLaren, every time Button is pressuring Hamilton, suddenly instructing both drivers - or sometimes only Button - to save fuel? More than a bit of a coincidence there.

Not really, they have said it every race, regardless of JB/LH position. the Merc engine is clearly thirsty and under filled more than other teams.
Also much harder to prove team orders, these are legal courts remember.
Although As I said before any order with regards to fuel should be looked at by the FIA, it would take 10seconds with data to clarify.
 
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Christian Horner was one to talk today. Does he not remember what he did two weeks ago?

I like the way Brundle put Horner in his place today.

I have no problem with a team principle issuing orders so that his team benefit from the result, but to berate Ferrari for doing what he did in Turkey...thats just taking the p¦$$.
 
...I'm speechless.

Why?

Do they keep saying that regardless of Postion? Yes
Do team orders exist? Yes
Are any provable (ignoring Ferrari today)? NO


That is the difference, common knowledge and assumption will not stand up to FIA or appeal courts.

Ferrari Messed up in so many ways today. not only the nemourse radio calls we all heard, but the way massa let him passed, don;t even need telemetry to show he lifted off substantially for no reason.

As brundle said before the move, best place would be to let Alfoso hang onto the rear of him and make a mistake passing back markers. As well as saying a hell of a lot less on the radio.

Would we of known what happened, of course, could it be proved = no.
 
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Yep it certainly looks like this has rubbed a lot of people up the wrong way. People will always be spouting excuses when their team/driver doesn't win in the end, its just the way it is. All this is for them is ammo for that arguement. Most of you aren't even bothered about the team orders themselves only how it was done. If that's the problem then why whine about the stewards/fia/ferrari, Massa and Smedley were the ones that made it so obvious, why not simply be mad at them?
He could have simply said "Push Felipe baby, push!" then have Massa outbrake himself into the hairpin and have Alonso sail up the inside, and we'd have been none the wiser.

I feel gutted for Massa and Rob, you could see it in both their faces that they weren't happy but they lived with the decision. It affected those two more than anyone else really, yet they were able to take it, admittedly not to well, on the chin.
Makes me laugh how many people are taking it so personally.
 
Yep it certainly looks like this has rubbed a lot of people up the wrong way. People will always be spouting excuses when their team/driver doesn't win in the end, its just the way it is. All this is for them is ammo for that arguement. Most of you aren't even bothered about the team orders themselves only how it was done. If that's the problem then why whine about the stewards/fia/ferrari, Massa and Smedley were the ones that made it so obvious, why not simply be mad at them?
He could have simply said "Push Felipe baby, push!" then have Massa outbrake himself into the hairpin and have Alonso sail up the inside, and we'd have been none the wiser.
.

It makes no difference what team it is.

It has to be provable to take action, why do some of you think the FIA can just decide on circumstantial evidence.

Why do you think FIA should ignore it's own rules?

Maybe Smedly and masa did it on purpose. It was clear neither were happy.
 
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It makes no difference what team it is.

It has to be provable to take action, why do some of you think the FIA can just decide on circumstantial evidence.

Why do you think FIA should ignore it's own rules?

Maybe Smedly and masa did it on purpose.

The fact that it was Ferrari makes all the difference.

The FIA only put that rule in so they could take action when things like this happen in a more obvious way purely to keep the fans happy. Again I say its because its so high profile, a top end team, with the top 2 positions that this is even being discussed.

I think both Smedly and Massa wear their hearts on their sleeves, they were gutted, they didn't want to do it but knew they had to, and they let their emotions get in the way of their jobs.
 
To add to my previous, the other instances where there would have been outrage would have been...
Button being asked to swap with Hamilton, or vice versa.
Rosberg being asked to let Schu past.
Webber being asked to let Vettel past.

Anyone else? probably not even make the papers.
 
The fact that it was Ferrari makes all the difference.

.

It makes no difference, I was defending Alosno and Ferrari 2 weeks ago, against the FIA decision. Which latter came out that FIA was right and not harsh.

It doesn't matter why the rule was introduced, the rule is there and it is clear.

To add to my previous, the other instances where there would have been outrage would have been...
Button being asked to swap with Hamilton, or vice versa.
Rosberg being asked to let Schu past.
Webber being asked to let Vettel past.
.

there certainly would be outrage and media attention. It is race and bet fixing. the public just doesn't stand for it and the rules are clear.
It doesn't matter how the sport grew up, or how it was 10 years ago. These are different times and different rules. It is not conventional sports where the rules remain constant.

As DC said, they clearly broke the rules and should be punished, however he does not see team orders as being wrong and hence why he wants the rules to be looked at, and that rule to be removed. But until then they broke a rule and have to face the consequences.
 
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Yeah, also pointed out by Eddie Jordan on the F1 Forum that when he made a team order, such as with R.Schumacher & Hill he personally delivered the message to the drivers over the Radios. It's a decision by the team boss, not by the engineer who has a personal affiliation to their driver.
That's how it should be as its then obvious its a team decision but then...it shows that it is an obvious order if someone in rare radio contact "orders" a move.

In this case here with Ferrari, they clearly had Masa's race engineer deliver the message because it would be even more obvious if the team manger came over the radio to deliver 'the coded message'.
Very clearly, unfortunately. Smedley obviously didn't want to do it and it reflected in the way he said it.
 
It doesn't matter how the sport grew up, or how it was 10 years ago. These are different times and different rules. It is not conventional sports where the rules remain constant.

Yep thats the society we live in. It was legal and socially acceptable for us to talk on our mobiles while we drove up till recently. Now if you do it your a child killer:rolleyes:

None of us are surprised it happened, we're just a little shocked at how obvious it was thats all. end of story as far as im concerned.
 
Very clearly, unfortunately. Smedley obviously didn't want to do it and it reflected in the way he said it.

As did massa with the way he did it.

Even with heated anger, I can not believe two vastly experienced people would do that, unless they want to have FIA and media action.
everyone knows the rules and it would have been discussed before the race and during the race.
 
As did massa with the way he did it.

Even with heated anger, I can not believe two vastly experienced people would do that, unless they want to have FIA and media action.
everyone knows the rules and it would have been discussed before the race and during the race.
You think Massa should have gone wide onto the grass or something similar to make it look as if Alonso pressured him into a mistake rather than a Barrichello-esque deliberate hand over?

What I don't get is why Ferrari are acting all innocent and "Massa did this". That Luca Collajanni comes across as such an arrogant berk wondering why people dare desecrate the sacred name of Ferrari. And my opinion of him isn't just based on today but back when ITV broadcasted F1 Louise interviewed him when something on a Ferrari broke and Luca's response was so high and mighty "We're Ferrari! etc etc".
 
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