German Grand Prix 2010, Hockenheimring Circuit - Race 11/19

[sunama]

If they don't want massa to win they shouldn't enter him

The job of the No.1 driver is to take the risks and bring home the WDC (assuming the car is good enough).

The job of the No.2 driver is to bring in good points and to assist the team to win the WCC (to expect the No.1 driver to win the WCC on his own is asking too much). There is less pressure on the No2 to win, but more pressure on him to make less mistakes and bring the car home consistently.

The other job of the No.2 is to assist the No1, where necessary - we saw this happen on Sunday. Also, the No.2 driver might be asked to slow the rest of the field down to allow the No.1 to open up a gap. This is seldom seen. The best example of this that I can think of was when MSc broke his leg . He came back (1999 - Malaysia) and assisted Irvine. In this race, he allowed Irvine ahead of him and then backed up the pack behind him. In my memory, this is the only time when I have seen the No.2 driver (which is what MSc became) being able to successfully do this. Perhaps JRS can pull up some other examples?

Finally, should the No.1 driver drop out, all efforts from that point onwards are focussed on the No.2.

Just because Ferrari have a No.1/No.2 system in place, it doesnt mean they should only race with 1 car.

The No.1 and No.2 system has been in operation for many many years. In recent times we can look at MSc/Irvine/Barrichello/Massa at Ferrari. We can also look at Hakkinen/Coulthard/McLaren. We also saw the No.1/No.2 system in operation while Heikki was at McLaren (if Heikki was in front of Hamilton, Heikki would move out of Hamilton's way - I think we saw this in Germany 2008?). Heikki understood that he was the No.2 driver.

The problem we are seeing this year, from Webber (and to a lesser extent - Massa), is that some No.2 drivers don't want to accept their position and it is this which is causing problems within the team.

 

[sunama]

I'm not convinced Ferrari will be able to catch up enough on the WCC though to win that.

Yep. McLaren are too strong.

The problem for RBR and Ferrari is that McLaren have arguably the best No.1 driver and the best No.2 drivers in their cars. (Not that McLaren are running the No.1/No.2 system...yet). Without doubt McLaren have the best driver pairing and if Ferrari want to take the WCC, Massa AND Alonso will both have to up their game.

For me this year, Alonso (by his standards) has been VERY poor. He was overtaken in the closing laps of a race, twice (once by MSc and the other was Kobyashi). A driver of Alonso's calibre shouldnt be caught out like this. Then there was the false start which he had earlier this season and the crash in Monaco (which he was dominating up to that point in the weekend).

Had Hamilton or Button been partnering Alonso in that Ferrari, I'm sure he would've been outscored up to this point.

In saying all of the above, I really do believe that Alonso will finish the 2nd half of the season as the top scorer - whether this will be enough to win the title remains to be seen.

 

[Duke]

how long will it take McLaren to get flexible front wing? First race back?

Hopefully. I think the first race back is going to be great as we'll find out who is where for the rest of the season

 

[sunama]

Then you have pretty much every team boss saying it happens, EJ, DC & brundle all in agreement that team orders are part of F1. Difference is EJ is the only one who want rules to be stuck to.

Not according to the following article.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8855382.stm




And best quote has to belong to Horner:

Horner told BBC Sport: "That was the clearest team order I've ever seen, especially when we've got a team apologizing to a driver."

Horner said the furore surrounding the incident was damaging for the sport.

"It's a great shame for Formula 1 that the race was manipulated to give one driver a victory over the other," he told Autosport. "The only losers today are Formula 1."

Pot Calling The Kettle Black.

If I were Ferrari, I would issue a public statement telling Horner: "People in glass houses shouldnt throw stones." They should also deliver 100 burnt/black pans to the RBR headquarters, addressed to Horner.

 

[Overlag]

I think most of the track is too narrow as this limits any over taking !

a lot of people seem to forget some great racing at hockenheimring in the past.

and how is the track "narrow" when cars was much wider in the old days and they did fine?

 

[Glaucus]

Not according to the following article.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8855382.stm

He wants Ferrari punished and it repealed.

 

[Haiku]

If I were Ferrari, I would issue a public statement telling Horner: "People in glass houses shouldnt throw stones." They should also deliver 100 burnt/black pans to the RBR headquarters, addressed to Horner.

Yes indeed, you have to laugh at Horner's audacity in criticising another team for favouring one driver over the other.

 

[sunama]

He wants Ferrari punished and it repealed.

...and he also wants the "team orders rule ditched". He is against the rule as much as other's, inside the F1 circle.

 

[Glaucus]

...and he also wants the "team orders rule ditched". He is against the rule as much as other's, inside the F1 circle.

yeah, but he wants Ferrari punished for breaking a rule. That's the difference. The others think Ferrari should be let of as it's a stupid rule.
EJ is saying it's a stupid rule, but a rule none the less.

 

[dannyjo22]

I talk to my F1 friends from all over the world and it was also reported on the radio the other day that the big fuss is only really in this country. The rest of the f1 watching world really hasn't made that big a deal out of it.

As quick as I think Alonso is, I really don't think it will have any bearing on the title.

Anyone I ask who bleats on about it, I refer them to 07 and get the same reply. yeah but Heiki wasn't going to win the title. As though it's ok to break the rules if the other driver can't win the title.

So much hypocracy and double standards over all this team orders. Unless of course anyone can show me in the rules where it says team orders are allowed under those circumstances.

If the Ferrari by having one of there drivers slow and manufacture a result is bringing the sport into disrepute then the exact same thing should have been thrown at mclaren in 2007. It doesn't matter that we didn't hear Heikkis engineer say sorry good lad. They should still have been charged for not controlling their drivers.

 

[Glaucus]

Maybe they should have, but circumstances where different. However not punishing them (for what ever reason) does not make what Ferrari did is right. This is know and the rule is in the rule book and it was clearly broken.
F1 seem to of had a balance in the past, everyone knew it happened but it was never blatantly obvious. Kept everyone in F1 happy and fans happy. Ferrari have gone and wrecked that careful balance.
Seeing as everyone from team owners to Bernie is getting involved this must be pretty big all over the world.

As I said I don't really care if team order are allowed or not. Both sides have good reasons. But since this has been highlighted and being investigated, FIA have to take action, otherwise it is a vast. That is what I am concerned about. It would be like Ferrari or Renault getting let of for breaking the rules.
Consistency is what we need and that means one outcome.

 

[Westyfield2]

I talk to my F1 friends from all over the world and it was also reported on the radio the other day that the big fuss is only really in this country. The rest of the f1 watching world really hasn't made that big a deal out of it.

I was watching the race on Rai Uno (national public service broadcaster and the most watched television channel in Italy) and moreless all of their after race coverage and interviews was about this. They kept playing the radio and overtake clips eleventy million times!

Don't know if they're still talking about it, but on Sunday it was the story.

 

[Duke]

It doesn't help the race was so boring that this was the only thing worth talking about as well.

 

[Setroc]

Well there's also flexiwing discussion going on, but it's being drowned out.

 

[dannyjo22]

Maybe they should have, but circumstances where different. However not punishing them (for what ever reason) does not make what Ferrari did is right. This is know and the rule is in the rule book and it was clearly broken.
F1 seem to of had a balance in the past, everyone knew it happened but it was never blatantly obvious. Kept everyone in F1 happy and fans happy. Ferrari have gone and wrecked that careful balance.
Seeing as everyone from team owners to Bernie is getting involved this must be pretty big all over the world..

Yep I understand what you are saying and agree to a point but the thing I keep hearing in the media is about taking f1 fans for fools. Well did these same fans not actually notice it in 2007/8 even though as you say it was more subtle?

I would bet my house had this been Hamilton and Heikii again no one would have said anything in this country.

Jesus Ron Dennis went on record to say he had to pretty much decide the inner of the winner of the 07 monaco GP before the event. You don't get anymore damning than that for declaring a team order or conspiring to the result.

Did the British media make a fuss, too right they did because Lewis wasn't allowed to race try to win over the dirty spaniard. Any penalties, nope.

Most of this is because it's ferrari and the totally unlikeable **** that is alonso.

I look forward to the next mclaren one/two where it seems to be the way they fuel one car more than the other. Wait for the save fuel messages to start coming and with 20 laps to go the cars follow home. Lets see them how many fans cry about being robbed of a racing finish.

I'm guessing none.

 

[dannyjo22]

It doesn't help the race was so boring that this was the only thing worth talking about as well.

An excellent point. I doubt hungary will be any better

 

[Glaucus]

I would bet my house had this been Hamilton and Heikii again no one would have said anything in this country.

.

I would bet there would be, if done in the same way as Ferrari. Just because he's English, doesn't stop the flaming. Just look at what has been said in other incidences, including his lying to stewards. which was very high up in the media.

 

[MarcLister]

decide the inner of the winner

The inner of the winner?!

An excellent point. I doubt hungary will be any better

I hope not. I don't think I could be 'starved' of a proper race two GPs in a row.

I apologise.

I think Hungary could be a good race. We've got Red Bull who'll want another pole and it'd be nice if Webber could put in a fight for pole v Vettel. I think McLaren will be good and the Jenson/Lewis battle will be interesting. Then Alonso is kind of the man of the moment. Kubica, Rosberg etc should make it a competitive top 10.

 

[sunama]

I think Hungary could be a good race. We've got Red Bull who'll want another pole and it'd be nice if Webber could put in a fight for pole v Vettel. I think McLaren will be good and the Jenson/Lewis battle will be interesting. Then Alonso is kind of the man of the moment. Kubica, Rosberg etc should make it a competitive top 10.

 

[Spud21]

Well I always thought there was a wiff of a legal concern. Plus I think the fans wouldn't accept it.

If they don't want massa to win they shouldn't enter him

Or just get a number 1 driver who can actually overtake moving objects, i swear if Massa was in a peddle car Alonso would follow him around and 2 mph claiming it's too dangerous to overtake.

Alonso is indicative of why F1 has largely become a pile of garbage over the years, he's a fantastic driver, but he's a **** poor racing driver as he's generally terrified to race people.

F1 has to be the dullest form of motorsport out there now, i was randomly watching some drag racing earlier and genuinely found it to be more interesting than F1 has become, and a top fuel race lasts less than 4 seconds. the power of those things is insane 8000+ hp and 0-300 in less than 4 secs.

I grew up watching Senna, Prost, piquet, Mansell etc, etc, and there was some real racing, now it's a very expensive precession