German Grand Prix 2013, Nürburgring - Race 9/19

smr said:
Just because he was pulling away for 10 laps doesnt mean he was annihilating vettel on race pace lol
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its more that Merc still had good pace at the end but its basically not possible to see what happened.

Frequently this year Merc have held on till after the first stint, largely because everyone knows pushing hard with the car that heavy and pitting early will mean longer stints later on which will hurt your race. Merc generally lose in the second/middle stint where they head backwards and then Merc have frequently actually had very good pace on a light car which isn't too surprising given the ultimate pace of the car, track rubbering in heavily by that part of the race.

Hamiltons last stint was insanely good, he didn't pit so had significantly older tyres than Webber, Rosberg and Alonso but managed to slice through the pack and stay in touch with Alonso and even close right up on him at the end.

What would have happened without safety cars and a "full pace" second stint/middle part of the race, who knows. Vettel may not have broken down without the tyres blowing, debrie may have gotten into his engine and caused it. If you assume it didn't and he'd have dropped out then Hamilton really did have a great shot, largely because Webber and Alonso had such awful starts. But thats the thing, had Alonso/Webber qualified/started the race well and Vettel not dropped out I don't think Merc could have done so well.

I really was surprised by that last Hamilton stint though, for older tyres he was incredibly fast/competitive.

To be honest I think its less that their tyre deg has improved so much, I think their overall pace has improved.

IE lets say RBR can qualify in a race at 1:30 and lap in race at 1:38, and previously Merc could qualy at 1:29, but lap in race at 1:39. I think its more a case of them moving up to a qualy 1:28 and lap in race at 1:38. IE their long run pace hasn't improved vs their qualy pace, their tyre deg hasn't improved, just their overall pace is improving to the point where their race pace is starting to match other cars.

A second ahead in practice is pretty huge in dry weather no matter what stage anyone is in, because in qualifying Merc have gone from early season to fighting for top 3 positions, to dominating completely to 1-2's and to beating Red Bull's in qualifying by significant margins.
 
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drunkenmaster said:
its more that Merc still had good pace at the end but its basically not possible to see what happened.

Frequently this year Merc have held on till after the first stint, largely because everyone knows pushing hard with the car that heavy and pitting early will mean longer stints later on which will hurt your race. Merc generally lose in the second/middle stint where they head backwards and then Merc have frequently actually had very good pace on a light car which isn't too surprising given the ultimate pace of the car, track rubbering in heavily by that part of the race.

Hamiltons last stint was insanely good, he didn't pit so had significantly older tyres than Webber, Rosberg and Alonso but managed to slice through the pack and stay in touch with Alonso and even close right up on him at the end.

What would have happened without safety cars and a "full pace" second stint/middle part of the race, who knows. Vettel may not have broken down without the tyres blowing, debrie may have gotten into his engine and caused it. If you assume it didn't and he'd have dropped out then Hamilton really did have a great shot, largely because Webber and Alonso had such awful starts. But thats the thing, had Alonso/Webber qualified/started the race well and Vettel not dropped out I don't think Merc could have done so well.
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Everyone knows webber would have beaten rosberg if the last safety car didnt occur.
 
deuse said:
If vimto would have pulled off to a safer place then no safety car and Nico would have peed it. The safety car helped webber.
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Noooo it massively saved nico. His left rear looked like a scabby lepper before he could pit thanks to the sc. Very close to blowing up.
 
Lol wtf. FIA have mandated a maximum camber under full load for the rear of 2.5 degrees.

That seems like a very small amount, or do F1 cars not run massive rear cambers? The BTCC looks like a good 5 degrees on the rear. I'm going to have 2.5 on the back of my Clio soon!
 
smr said:
Lol our seasons written off anyway so im not bothered about that. We'll be pumping more effort earlier into 2014. Think bar/Honda -> Brawn ;)
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We told you the season of written off ages ago ;)
Br\Honda+Brawn was great because of Hondas money and Brawns know how. But think of this

Honda\Whitmarsh doesn't sound that good :D I think they won't get any where till either they get another No1 driver or about 2017
 
smr said:
Everyone knows webber would have beaten rosberg if the last safety car didnt occur.
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deuse said:
If vimto would have pulled off to a safer place then no safety car and Nico would have peed it. The safety car helped webber.
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No safety car and Webber wouldn't pit and would have not had that kind of tyre life to throw at a chase. Webber was on 11 lap old medium tyres vs Rosberg on 8 lap old hard tyres when the safety car came out and both pitted. WIthout the pits and a new set of mediums Webber would have had a very hard time doing 21 laps on a single set of mediums, he'd have been in trouble.

I'm not convinced that Rosberg's 8 lap old hards were done when he pitted, I think they were talking about his 22 lap old set from before... but he may have picked up a problem with that set, it wasn't clear at all. Its possible his second set of hards got eaten by the same tyre problem, but Rosberg could have done a 20+ lap stint on hards, Webber had no chance of finishing the race on mediums(without going very slowly and losing a lot of places). The longest stint on mediums was above the 21 laps Webber needed but we're talking Pic, Maldonado and Button guys who got eaten alive at the end. Webber without the safety car would have been eaten alive like Button was without question.

Look at how Hamilton came back at Alonso after Alonso/Webber had done 10 laps on the medium and they were on the verge of running out of steam due to the pace they were doing on those tyres. That hamilton was matching Alonso on slower and significantly older tyres really was incredibly impressive.

Then lastly after both pitted for their third set(rosberg hard, Webber mediums with 20 laps to go pretty much) Webber was 15 seconds behind Rosberg and not gaining, he gained over 10 seconds behind the safety car and lost minimal time behind people. Without the safety car he had a long stint on a medium tyre and 15 seconds to gain, the safety car let him go with fresh mediums vs hards with a 5 second gap vs 15 second gap.

There is NO question the safety car helped Webber a heck of a lot, the first safety car also jumped him up multiple positions and got him 20 seconds closer to the leader.

Without the tyre problems its insanely difficult to quantify who would have done best. Hamilton showed the best tyre wear in both his hard stints. There were huge gains with free pit stops and gaining on the front from both safety cars, those further back generally gained significantly more than the the leaders(as their gap gets eaten each time).
 
Interesting apparently NASCAR brought in some very strict rules for using tyres within design parameters. As he say its one thing to be safe, it's a sin to be slow. And the teams need saving from themselfs. So perhaps it's time for FIA to bring in strict rules as well.
 
But the tyres didn't fail because the teams all started pushing the limit further than they had before, they failed because they are of a design less tolerant than previous.

The teams don't need saving from themselves as they haven't changed what they have been doing. What they need to be saved from is components not fit for purpose.

Interesting point now on R5LSX, the GPDA have confirmed that 1 blowout and they will withdraw from the race :/
 
How can you say not fit for purpose, when they weren't used within the deisgn window.
Just becuase they got away with it before, doesn't mean anything.
They used wheels on the wrong side of the car.
Teams will go with what is faster for them, regardless of safety.
Thus FIA need to step and say you will run tyres within parameter. If they aren't willing to do that, they need to make it clear it is not pirellis fault. The media attention is unfairly on Pirelli as is your post.

They are designed to be safe and to code, when used as directed, they weren't used as directed.

NASCAR did this after teams ran there front left almost flat as it was far faster.
 
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