Golf Thread

[TheCSSDoctor]

Just had another lesson with my coach.
Not too sure on him at the moment, but going to stay with him, even if we didn't quite gel as much as I'd like.

He spent the first half of a lesson discussing how I wanted to be taught in terms of priorities, as he felt that the way he wanted to teach me didn't align to how I wanted to be taught.
I have spent a lot of time learning about what things I want to train on and he had a different idea, almost stubborn-like, which is fine, but don't spend half of my lesson debating about it with me after turning up 5 mins late! (£60/hr)

Don't get me wrong, I'm different to a lot of people in terms of my thoughts on how quickly people can get better at things. He thinks people take years to get slightly better in golf, but they say these things without any knowledge or even questioning how much practice you put in. Obviously, I don't expect changes over night or even over a few days, but when I hit as many balls, practicing as much as I do, then things can change quicker and my expectations change with it.

I did tell him at the end that we should go straight into hitting balls next time and go from there. Still charged me the whole 1hr rate too.

He's a tour pro and has worked along side many big name players, but to say there's only one way to be taught and be closed minded about it, just doesn't sit right with me.

Anyone else had interesting coaching sessions?

What was he meaning by this? Was he suggesting that there is effectively only one type of swing and you have to hit certain positions during it to have a good golf swing? If so, I would dump him straight away, just look at the likes of Jim Furyk and Matt Wolff and their swings and how unconventional they look

Now if he was meaning to start with shorter irons and work up to driver, for example, then there is a logic behind that thinking, as the longer the club gets, the harder it can be to control, so I could understand that approach, but still don't necessarily agree with it depending on your level of ability. However, he should be able to explain the reasons behind his method of teaching and take on board your priorities

A swing is very personal - I asked for lessons on putting and short game (bunkers / chipping etc) to try and improve on those areas with a previous coach and before every lesson he would ask if there was anything specific or problems I was seeing that I wanted to work on

 

[SKILL]

I kinda get that discussing priorites/methods, even for half an hour, could be useful but it sounds like he just essentially ignored that and just did what he was wanting/planning to do anyway? I'd understand if you were at least a little annoyed at that

But then you also say you were going to stay with him? I think gelling with your teacher is important, probably more so than what that person knows, to an extent...

Had my third (weekly...) lesson today, went pretty well, was interesting to see how far I'd lapsed back towards what I used to do but not quite as bad. Ended up booking the simulator next week rather than a lesson for some more structured practice where I can get the numbers. It feels like I 'know' what to do but putting it all together and making that my default swing is the trick... It's like if I concentrate on path I can get that to 0.x degrees but then my club face is open, or I'm moving too much and I thin/fat the ball etc. So then I focus on rotating my wrists to close the face and my path goes back to 3-6 degrees out-to-in, but at least the club face is closed so now the ball is going left (a rare shot/'miss' for me)...

 

[MarkA]

It's not specific to my swing more so, I wanted to work on managing speed in the swing.
How can I swing faster without swinging faster. Make my strike more efficient with swinging in mind, learn how to shift my weight correctly, as to naturally increase swing speed, use the floor more effectively, have a more effortless swing. You've no doubt heard a lot of these terms and so have I, I'd like to get taught how to do some of them.

He is adamant that improving speed and distance is not the best way of getting better in golf. Which I agree with, it's not for everyone. It's what I want to learn though and its what gets me excited about going out and hitting golf balls.

People like Kyle Berkshire and Martin Borgmeister and other examples swing 150MPH+, yet they're the elite golf club speed swingers, yet I can only just swing 105mph. It's not only strength, its a lot of technique and loading the club in the right positions. I don't think he knows much about that from what I could tell. I'd like to be working my way up to 110mph and upwards over the next few months.

So after a big discussion, I'm going down the route of trying to get more consistent with my irons - when I really want my drives to be more consistent and get a little more out of my average driver distance. Will this translate? I don't know... we'll see.

I agree with him to a degree though, I definitely need lots of work across all of my game, but my skill ceiling right now is going to be distance off the tee, this is what I feel most strongly about, raising that particular skill ceiling I believe is key.
Finding a good coach is difficult around here though, I've tried a couple and at least with this one, I feel like I'm trying things I've never tried and I'm learning, so will stick with it.

 

[jaybee]

If any tutor turned up to a lesson 5 minutes late and charged me the full hour, I'd kindly remind them of their late arrival. Based on their response would dictate whether I would stay with them as it would tend to highlight the kind of person they are in terms of slowly, slowly, all the monies, my way or the highway, vs, have fun and try to add as much value to your game as possible with each lesson.

I took my son for his first lesson the other day. The guy was brilliant. Really great instructor and made it fun for him, loads of encouragement, praising the things he is already doing well etc. Tried to keep things simple and pointed out some really good drills and things to work on. There was zero pressure to train in any particular way or when to come back for more. I'll certainly be booking him some more. I think about once every few weeks or so seems good at the moment.

EDIT: Also instantly picked up something my son was doing wrong with his grip making it harder/painful to swing hard. Left hand was rolled too far under.

 

[jaybee]

It's not specific to my swing more so, I wanted to work on managing speed in the swing.
How can I swing faster without swinging faster. Make my strike more efficient with swinging in mind, learn how to shift my weight correctly, as to naturally increase swing speed, use the floor more effectively, have a more effortless swing. You've no doubt heard a lot of these terms and so have I, I'd like to get taught how to do some of them.

He is adamant that improving speed and distance is not the best way of getting better in golf. Which I agree with, it's not for everyone. It's what I want to learn though and its what gets me excited about going out and hitting golf balls.

People like Kyle Berkshire and Martin Borgmeister and other examples swing 150MPH+, yet they're the elite golf club speed swingers, yet I can only just swing 105mph. It's not only strength, its a lot of technique and loading the club in the right positions. I don't think he knows much about that from what I could tell. I'd like to be working my way up to 110mph and upwards over the next few months.

So after a big discussion, I'm going down the route of trying to get more consistent with my irons - when I really want my drives to be more consistent and get a little more out of my average driver distance. Will this translate? I don't know... we'll see.

I agree with him to a degree though, I definitely need lots of work across all of my game, but my skill ceiling right now is going to be distance off the tee, this is what I feel most strongly about, raising that particular skill ceiling I believe is key.
Finding a good coach is difficult around here though, I've tried a couple and at least with this one, I feel like I'm trying things I've never tried and I'm learning, so will stick with it.

With regard to swing speed -and I ask this as a noob - does it particularly matter or corelate directly to how far you hit it? If the answer is almost always yes then fine. Just wondered if there are people that may have an inefficient swing and/or speed, yet still hit far/well. I've no idea what speed I swing a club at. Do the tracer ranges give those stats? All I ever really looked at was yardage so far to try to work out what I hit each club at roughly.

 

[Superpatsy]

Just had another lesson with my coach.
Not too sure on him at the moment, but going to stay with him, even if we didn't quite gel as much as I'd like.

He spent the first half of a lesson discussing how I wanted to be taught in terms of priorities, as he felt that the way he wanted to teach me didn't align to how I wanted to be taught.
I have spent a lot of time learning about what things I want to train on and he had a different idea, almost stubborn-like, which is fine, but don't spend half of my lesson debating about it with me after turning up 5 mins late! (£60/hr)

Don't get me wrong, I'm different to a lot of people in terms of my thoughts on how quickly people can get better at things. He thinks people take years to get slightly better in golf, but they say these things without any knowledge or even questioning how much practice you put in. Obviously, I don't expect changes over night or even over a few days, but when I hit as many balls, practicing as much as I do, then things can change quicker and my expectations change with it.

I did tell him at the end that we should go straight into hitting balls next time and go from there. Still charged me the whole 1hr rate too.

He's a tour pro and has worked along side many big name players, but to say there's only one way to be taught and be closed minded about it, just doesn't sit right with me.

Anyone else had interesting coaching sessions?

If he thinks it takes people years to get slightly better at golf, I'd say that says more about his coaching than his clients. I'd be binning him and finding someone else. I've used two instructors - first was an absolute huddy of a cowboy and the other a tour pro who got head-hunted and now works in Abu Dhabi.

First guy was borderline hopeless which I'm not surprised at now that I realise how cheap his lessons were. I had an early release so I kept topping it when I first started but instead of correcting it, he compensated for it by telling me to lean the shaft miles ahead of the club until I got it right. Kept asking about help with my driver and he kept papping it off saying I have to work on my irons first even though I couldn't hit my driver at all. Icing on the cake for me was when he never even turned up to a lesson and didn't even bother to message to apologise. This was in July 2021. He came across as very, very arrogant and didn't feel really comfortable with him.

Moved to one of the tour pro's at my local range and he was amazing. Had one driver lesson, one irons lesson, and one putting lesson which turned me into an entirely different player so the taking years to be slightly better is nonsense. Was devastated when he told me he was moving but at the same time over the moon for him.

 

[TheCSSDoctor]

With regard to swing speed -and I ask this as a noob - does it particularly matter or corelate directly to how far you hit it? If the answer is almost always yes then fine. Just wondered if there are people that may have an inefficient swing and/or speed, yet still hit far/well. I've no idea what speed I swing a club at. Do the tracer ranges give those stats? All I ever really looked at was yardage so far to try to work out what I hit each club at roughly.

Swing speed is an indicator of how far you can potentially hit the ball, but you have to have optimum impact conditions to get that distance

100mph swing and optimum strike could give you 250yd carry for example, but strike the ball low on the face with the exact same swing and the ball will spin more and you will lose distance

There is more to it than that, but it gives an idea of how it works

If you use any simulator, look for the 'Smash Factor' as this gives an idea of how efficiently you struck the ball (it is just a calculation based on club speed and ball speed but it gives an idea)

 

[MarkA]

With regard to swing speed -and I ask this as a noob - does it particularly matter or corelate directly to how far you hit it? If the answer is almost always yes then fine. Just wondered if there are people that may have an inefficient swing and/or speed, yet still hit far/well. I've no idea what speed I swing a club at. Do the tracer ranges give those stats? All I ever really looked at was yardage so far to try to work out what I hit each club at roughly.

Yes, pretty much.
Efficiency of strike is measured by smash-factor. Highest smash factor is rated at 1.52
100MPH swing, hitting the ball dead center of the club can result in 1.52 smash factor. Which would give you 152MPH ball speed, depending on the ball.

You can put these stats into a website like this: https://trajectory.flightscope.com/


I tend to be around 1.42-1.45 smash factor, not great but not too bad really. I'd like to be able to hit more upwards on the ball, as I feel my ball flight is a little too low. If I hit up more, I'd create less spin on the ball, which will help the ball go further too.

Being able to swing faster is another concept in golf, which will translate to faster clubhead speed, which is what I want to get better at. Yx1.52 = Max ball speed. Increasing Y is a chance of getting more distance. Y is the hardest thing to increase, there's loads of biomechanics involved. Lookup Dr Kwon on youtube.

On another note, during my warmup while waiting for the coach, this is my PB so far - which I was chuffed about.

 

[booyaka]

People like Kyle Berkshire and Martin Borgmeister and other examples swing 150MPH+, yet they're the elite golf club speed swingers, yet I can only just swing 105mph. It's not only strength, its a lot of technique and loading the club in the right positions. I don't think he knows much about that from what I could tell. I'd like to be working my way up to 110mph and upwards over the next few months.

So after a big discussion, I'm going down the route of trying to get more consistent with my irons - when I really want my drives to be more consistent and get a little more out of my average driver distance. Will this translate? I don't know... we'll see.

I agree with him to a degree though, I definitely need lots of work across all of my game, but my skill ceiling right now is going to be distance off the tee, this is what I feel most strongly about, raising that particular skill ceiling I believe is key.
Finding a good coach is difficult around here though, I've tried a couple and at least with this one, I feel like I'm trying things I've never tried and I'm learning, so will stick with it.

My 2p's worth....Take it or leave it but just my thoughts. I would disagree that distance is the problem for you.....

Berkshire and Martin are freaks - extremely talented golfers who have transitioned into speed training/long drive. They spend hours a week working on speed, they use clubs that we normal golfer wouldn't be able to hit in a million years (way longer shafts, 6 degree driver heads with custom made shafts etc)

DON'T based your golf game/improvements on anything to do with them.

Your distance improvements will come from being as efficient as possible with your strike location, delivery of the clubhead to the ball, angle of attack, path etc. Unless you undertake a massive program to improve your swing speed, gym time, speed training etc - your swing speed won't change much (few mph here and there is possible)

The work you would need to put in to gain say 5-7mph swing speed would be massive... literally hours and hours of dedicated gym time/weight training/bulking etc. That's fine if you want to just hit the ball as far as possible, but in reality I tend to agree with your coach - consistency is the key to golf.

80% of the shots golfers lose to par occur inside 100 yards.... 65% of the shots you take in a round are from under 100 yards. Distance does matter, yes, but for me, I'd take consistency every time over a 5-10 yard gain on driver.

I know this is only my stats but 2021 I averaged 263 driver distance playing off 12.8 handicap average that year.
Last year 2022 - averaged 264 driver distance - finished playing off 8.7.

Biggest improvement last year from 2021 was ....... number of greens hit from 100 yards and in went from 35% to 54%. (stats taken from shotscope data across about 60 rounds in both years)
Average scores came down by 4.1 shots a round....

Dial in the irons and the rest will follow - How many times you hit driver in a round at your own club.... probably 8-10 max maybe - how many iron shots you hit in a round - 30-40 a round.... Look at it that way..
That's just my thoughts - nothing personal!

 

[MarkA]

I never take it personally, don't worry! I always respect peoples opinions on subjects I'm discussing.

Although, you already have the speed that I'm aiming towards. So you're coming from a slightly different place than me.

I'm hoping to get my averages up to 250 yards, they were 211 yards until last month.
230 average on the course this weekend is my best yet, but you averages 260+ across all of the last few years.
My aim is to get to scratch, as quick as humanly possible. Will I ever get there? I don't know. I'm driven to get better and explore every avenue.

My driver isn't the problem, but that is the most distance you can gain from a club. Ideally, when I gain distance on my driver, I'll gain it on all my clubs, which will be key to lowering scores.
The problem with coaches, they are not thinking of the long term goals, they want to fix the short term things and give you quick fixes to slightly better scores (that's what I can see, so far).

I want a plan for the long term, but to get there as quick as possible, you need to work on the things that will have the biggest impact. The hardest thing, like you say... to gain yards will be lots of gym work. I'm already doing that, along side speed training sticks. I need to get the technique nailed down through coaching, but no one is offering it to me in the sessions I pay for.

I don't feel like my iron play is bad, I'm pretty happy with how I'm hitting greens for now.

Also, I've watched Kyle and Martin both play proper golf matches, smashing the ball down the fairway with 7 degree normal length driver shafts and they still keep it in play.

The game is easy for you, as you've always got a 8i or less into a green no doubt. When I've played from winter mats, when the hole is 50 yards shorter, I score way better. It's a shame not all holes are like that.

Again, as usual I don't want to sound disrespectful, but we all have different opinions and that's OK.

 

[booyaka]

All good @MarkA - discussion I enjoy.

Just to be clear - my average drive numbers - Shot Scope use what is called a ‘Performance Average’ this removes all outliers (good and bad) when calculating shot distances. It provides the golfer with an average distance, if they were to hit the shot well. So I hit a lot less than 260 and a few more than that.

Getting to scratch is a BIG ask !! less than 1.6% of golfers in USA are scratch or less.

Just scanning my club (190 members) - there are only 4 members at 0 handicap or "better" - One of them is 67 years old and uses a 15 year old Taylormade bubble driver. I played him this year in a comp matchplay, he hits the ball 200/220 max with driver. His short game and putting are outrageous. He was giving me 8 shots, and beat me 3&2. He was NEVER in trouble - middle of every fairway, plays up /around the green with his 5 wood/5 iron and then chips from 30/50 yards for his 3rd on most of our par 4's to about 5/10/15 ft and holes so many putts of that length it's unreal.

Giving yourself a target is good, but scratch is a massive ask....That's either a god given talent, or hundreds of hours of practice and most of that is short game/putting.

I'm not saying it's can't be done - but I don't think you will enjoy your golf if all you are trying to do is get to a 0...... That's so much about hard work and hundreds of hours practice / lessons that you will loose the enjoyment of golf I suspect.

Distance is important, no question, but if scratch is the aim - Distance is NOT your priority - consistency, accuracy and short game/putting are the number one things to have in your locker. Add to that a mental game as well.

And again - I'm not having a go at you or doubting your ability/passion to aim for scratch etc - but I personally just want to enjoy my golf, to the best of my ability, with some mates and do some travel/play courses I've always wanted to.

 

[magicroundabout]

Got to agree with @booyaka @MarkA Try not to get concerned with distance. Consistency is key. Especially short game + putting. As Rick Shiels latest course vlog demonstrates, Break 65. He even admits himself his long game is good but his short game is questionable.

I have a friend who plays off 5. His driver barely goes above 220yards and he has an awful slice. But he uses it to his strength and has developed his swing around his slice. It's only when he gets to his 8 iron does he straighten his shots up. It's a marvel to watch him hit a ball as he aims that far right (he's a lefty) you do wonder if it'll actually come back around. But he won our 3 day tour at Celtic Manor last year as his short game was simply amazing. He'd be in heaps of trouble but can get up and down with ease.

For myself my handicap has dropped this year due to having new wedges and now having a heap more confidence with my short game. I'm not a gym rat and I'm hardly that tall (5ft 7") but having a decent swing technique is what gets me yards off the tee and fairway. @ArcticHeron will vouch for that.

 

[MarkA]

Honestly. I really really do get where you're coming from.

but having a decent swing technique is what gets me yards off the tee and fairway.

This is what I want. It goes hand-in-hand with distance.

Technique that increases clubhead speed, which gets you distance off the tee. That is precisely what I want to be taught.
I don't want to just be able to swing a club 110MPH, I want to be able to do it through technique. Technique is what coaches should be teaching, to get me efficiency in my swing (not my strike), as I know my efficiency is fine (1.45+ smash factor).

There's things like weight shift, using the ground better, turning more or less in my backswing, bigger backswing, kinetic chain, rhythm - that can all help you generate good technique - which lends its hands to automatically generating clubhead speed.

Do you see where I'm coming from?
Charlie Woods, he's 13 - carries his drive 250yards. Do you think he's stronger than me? Doubt it. Do you think he has been taught a much better technique than me? Most definitely - yes! That's what I want to learn, I'm willing to pay!

 

[TheCSSDoctor]

I admire your desire to get to scratch @MarkA but just be aware that the lower your handicap gets, the harder it becomes to drop those last few shots

With the new handicap system, shooting low to mid 80's will quite possibly see you down to single figures (depending on the difficulty of the courses you play), but then you need to work harder and shoot consistently in the mid 70's to drop another couple of shots, and so on

I am not a long hitter by any means, compared to some of the other players at my club, although I have had rounds in the past with multiple 300yd drives when the conditions and my health have been right. I did go down the route of trying to increase my swing speed one year, but it messed so much with my natural rhythm that I just couldn't get any consistency with any club, so I stopped and went back to a rhythm that worked. I did pick up a couple yards, probably due to the natural effect of trying to get faster and having a slightly quicker baseline swing as a consequence, but it works for me now

Consistency is definitely the key to good golf - there is no point being able to hit the ball 300yds if the bulk of your second shots are chipping back out to the fairway, or you are playing 3 off the tee due to hitting the first ball OB

It is a guess, but I am likely somewhere in the region of 250-260yd average drives and my index is 5.3, with a PB round of +1 at my home course which has some tricky greens, especially during the summer when they are quick (they were measured at just over 11 for club championships last year)

 

[MarkA]

Thanks @TheCSSDoctor - My aspirations are very high, but if you don't aim high, then there's no chance of getting close.
I believe getting scratch is extremely difficult, but it's going to be a life-long journey, the harder I try now, while I'm young-ish, the more chance I have of getting there.
I don't believe for one second that it's a given that I will even get there, but I sure will try.

My hope of distance will be to reach 300 yards, not every shot or even every 10 shots, but to know I have it in the bag, and if I really want to go at one and even then, I'd be happy with knowing I'll only pull it off 1 in 3 times if I really try.

I love golf, for so many reasons. I'm addicted and I want to be able to introduce it to my kids in the next few years, when they get the strength to swing the club (4yr old).

 

[SKILL]

That kinda made me think of something, bit of a tangent but...

Does anyone find, or perhaps found when they started out, that they seem to go through 'phases' with clubs?

For instance when I started out I loved my 6 Iron, way more than the 4 Hybrid I had, just seemed to work but nowadays I'm liking it much. Same with the Driver, I've had periods of a week or two where my Driver is fantastic, consistently middle of the fairway, but right now it's a complete mess. Most recently is my 3 Hybrid after a period of it being my favourite club in the bag I now keep topping it almost to the point I don't want to touch the thing.

But on the other hand my short irons right now (say 8-PW) are great, and finding my chipping from around the green, usually with the PW, is really coming on leaps and bounds and just feels 'right'...

 

[TheCSSDoctor]

That kinda made me think of something, bit of a tangent but...

Does anyone find, or perhaps found when they started out, that they seem to go through 'phases' with clubs?

For instance when I started out I loved my 6 Iron, way more than the 4 Hybrid I had, just seemed to work but nowadays I'm liking it much. Same with the Driver, I've had periods of a week or two where my Driver is fantastic, consistently middle of the fairway, but right now it's a complete mess. Most recently is my 3 Hybrid after a period of it being my favourite club in the bag I now keep topping it almost to the point I don't want to touch the thing.

But on the other hand my short irons right now (say 8-PW) are great, and finding my chipping from around the green, usually with the PW, is really coming on leaps and bounds and just feels 'right'...

Definitely, but then golf has always been a mental game

My 3W has been a Jekyll and Hyde club this last year - some days I can't strike it anywhere but centre of the face and straight down the middle, and other days I can top it off a 1/2" tee with the ball in the middle of my stance when it should be easier to sky it.....go figure?

The one club that has been constant since the day it went in my bag is the utility 2i I have got - off the tee, fairway, out of rough, it is just so consistent for me

My wife is the same with her clubs - loves her driver, hybrid and 7i, but put a PW in her hand around the green and she will more often than not thin it, but give her a 9i for the same shot and she hits it fine

 

[TheCSSDoctor]

Anyone going to be watching this when it is released?

I saw @booyaka posted it earlier in the thread but who is interested?

 

[Superpatsy]

Anyone going to be watching this when it is released?

I saw @booyaka posted it earlier in the thread but who is interested?

I'm gonna wait until people have watched it first and take it from there. Can't be bothered with another fabricated Drive to Survive clone full of ********.

 

[SKILL]

I'll be watching it, I don't really follow much golf (started watching the 10-15 min highlights on YouTube but that's it), I'm sure it will be sensationalised and ott but hey, especially with the LIV stuff going on and I think I saw they were following some of the big winners so could be interesting. Saying that as a big F1 fan I stopped watching Drive to Survive after a couple of seasons cause it just got too much...

Out for the usual Friday game today, scored 109, driver all over the place, topping my hybrid 50% of the time, but my Irons/chipping/putting felt pretty good overall, happy with that

Just checked the stats on Garmin... Longest drive 160 yards, 0% GIR, 31% Fairways hit (4/13) but 1.9 putts per hole...

EDIT: Thinking about it compared to recent weeks it was lovely, ground has thawed out but also it's not really rained in a while so it's was just pretty pleasantly soft underfoot, no boggy mess or frozen solid, nice change