Lovren didn't help but as a whole our team blew it, yet again we don't have an answer when a team plays that tactic and klopp wrong use of subs screwed us
Greenlizard0 Weekend Football Thread ** spoilers ** [21st - 27th April 2017]
- Thread starter Cosimo
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Caporegime
Lovren doesn't have the pace to play a high line and in games like today where our opposition had two of the quickest wingers it was suicidal to play so high. Both of the goals came from attacks where they got in behind us ridiculously easy.
It's easy to criticise tactics and subs but there was no obvious alternative to how we started today. We can all say he should have done x or y but when you have that bench available to you, it's very difficult to make a change with any confidence that we'd have been better off. Bottom line is if Lovren doesn't make those mistakes, that's a comfortable win because Palace didn't create a chance in the game, and we're calling this a professional performance similar to the last 2 games.
Nothing to do with pace, you need a brain. He twice made suicidal decisions trying to win the ball when there was no cover behind him.
edit: We're a stupid team. We don't have any streetwise players to consistently win games when we're not playing well or have a few injuries. The Coutinho chance/penalty incident is typical Liverpool - why are you desperately trying to stay on your feet? Go down and win the penalty.
Klopp got most subs wrong all year he leaves it far too late or until he is forced, on today's case were losing anyway so why not give woodburn or Brewster a shot?
Seeing as we've come from behind to win either the most or 2nd most points in the league I think it's a little unfair to say he's got his changes wrong too often. As for why he didn't give either of those a chance, obviously because he felt we had more chance of scoring with the side on the pitch than making those changes. It's easy with hindsight to say we should have done something differently but it's not as if he left Sturridge, Lallana and Mane on the bench, it was two kids.
Regardless of hindsight, the easy option for Klopp would have been to just throw them on and say at least I tried. It's far harder and braver to do nothing if you believe the team you have on the pitch is more likely to change the game.
Regardless of hindsight, the easy option for Klopp would have been to just throw them on and say at least I tried. It's far harder and braver to do nothing if you believe the team you have on the pitch is more likely to change the game.
But at what point do we give them a chance it's 10min left were 2-1 down, mane etc missing give them ago it's a risk that should be taken let's face it most palace players won't have a clue about them so least it is a different option. Swapping players in midfield is just changing like for like the middle wasn't our issue it was final third yet again. We hear how great woodburn etc is but when was he in first 11 recently? We don't have a big team it wasn't added to in January which is klopp fault so least he should do is use youth if he takes them, especially imo on games like this which all year we have failed on same issue. I don't want to hate on klopp too much as we have improved in table position, progress is there just slowly
You give them a chance either when they're ready to improve the side or when you're winning 3-0 with 15 minutes to go. As I said, it's easy to say now that he should have played them but the only question Klopp had to ask himself is which side he believed was most likely to get us back into the game. Like I said, it would have been easy for him to throw them on and hope for the best - the harder decision was not to if he believed we were more likely to score without them because he's opening himself up to criticism if we don't.
Woodburn started vs Stoke and was subbed off when we were losing at HT. We came back to win the game. He and Brewster are kids and more importantly, they're built like kids. Throwing them on would have been nothing more than a gamble. They're not physically ready to influence games at this level yet - bringing them on at that stage of the game would have been like closing your eyes and hope for the best.
As for January, that's a different matter and it's not as straight forward as people like to think. We're not Chelsea or Man City - there's no bottomless pit of money and as I've spoke about a lot recently, buying badly is far worse than not buying at all. Buy badly and not only don't they improve things in the short-term but because of the difference between what we pay and the teams below us pay, we'll be left lumbered with them and it makes buying in the future harder. That's why Klopp is being selective in who he's willing to sign and who he won't. Again, hindsight is wonderful and I'm sure had Klopp known that Sturridge, Henderson, Lallana and Mane were going to miss large chunks of the 2nd half of the season then he'd have been more willing to buy somebody in January.
I think it shows that both Pep and Klopp are ridiculously overrated, give them a league where it's more competitive than 2 teams and they are both showing as lacking.
Liverpool haven't progressed since Rafa left, it's a joke that they expect people to pay to watch that dross knowing that it's going to be a terrible performance.
Liverpool haven't progressed since Rafa left, it's a joke that they expect people to pay to watch that dross knowing that it's going to be a terrible performance.
Jesus Christ. The end of Benitez's era sent the club back years - the entire club and everything that had been built was ripped up and torn apart. We've spent the years after trying to rebuild but for the first time, thanks to Klopp, we appear to be building with somekind of foundation in place. Unlike other managers, Klopp hasn't spent hundreds of millions looking for short term fixes and despite that, despite having a threadbare squad, we're challenging with these sides that massively outspent us and were starting from a stronger position too.
I'm honestly not sure what to make of your first sentence - managers find it harder in a more competitive league? That's pretty obvious, isn't it?
I wouldn't really blame Klopp, 9 out of his first choice 11 are average (but hard working mostly) players.
Clyne,Can,Coutinho,Firmino and Mane arent average. Arguments for Henderson and Lallana to be added to that list aswell.
Poor today to be honest. I knew when we scored that we would only get another if it was a worldy but when you think how depleted Palace were thats unacceptable.
Poor today to be honest. I knew when we scored that we would only get another if it was a worldy but when you think how depleted Palace were thats unacceptable.
Caporegime
Other than Coutinho I think most people could form a reasonable argument for replacing most of the team we played today. Our spine is probably the weakest it's been in decades and even with Henderson, Lallana and Mane back we're still short of 4 or 5 quality first team players if we want to compete for the title.
Having said that, I don't think a fully fit Liverpool squad would've won today. We didn't look like scoring when we had the ball but we did look like conceding everytime Palace had it and that falls on Klopp because it's happened way too many times against weaker opposition this season.
Having said that, I don't think a fully fit Liverpool squad would've won today. We didn't look like scoring when we had the ball but we did look like conceding everytime Palace had it and that falls on Klopp because it's happened way too many times against weaker opposition this season.
In your opinion. Only Coutinho would get into a top team out of that list.
My point is that Liverpool have a decent manager but mostly average but hard working players, and barely any squad depth.
You said two weren't and I was simply saying that's not the case...now its "mostly" average players.
They aren't average, they aren't world class but Coutinho, Firmino, Can, Clyne, Milner, Matip, Mane, Lallana, Henderson etc are not average players. We have average players in reserve sure which is what I think you're getting at but our first 11 challenges any in the league.
So your saying it was Rafa's fault not Hicks and Gillette who ruined the team he built? Ok....
If you read my 1st sentence again I said they were both overrated Poch, Conte & Koeman have all done better than Klopp since joining, Pep has had money to spend and still taken City backwards.
How many years have Liverpool been buying the next Zidane, Viera, Messi, Ronaldo etc. it's as far back as I can remember got to be over 20 years now so not sure how you can say we're building some sort of foundation, we've had 100s of next big things and done nothing with them.
If it's his 1st choice 11 how is it not his fault, he cannot seem to motivate players unless they are playing one of the top 4 or 5 teams, I would go on to say Liverpool are now more 'game raisers' rather than regular performers, poor tactics, players and no idea how to play against teams who can't defend.
Anyway I'm out as a few years ago I left Anfield and said I refuse to get wound up over football anymore so back to not watching and caring.
No, I didn't say it was Rafa's fault at all. I was talking about that 2 year period or so where the club was torn apart, not by him to be clear. And what were you expecting from Klopp? He's come in and taken a side that finished 6th/7th and in his first full season, despite spending far less than his rivals, is competing for a top 4 spot. Surely that's progress? I'm not sure what Koeman's achieved but less than 2 years ago I was arguing with Spurs fans on here that were calling for Poch to be sacked! Even back then, it was clear to me that he was putting the building blocks in place for Spurs to improve - Spurs were never going to be a Chelsea/Abramovic where they could challenge overnight. Conte's done great but he took over squad capable of winning the title - the job he's done has been exaggerated by the fact that Chelsea underperformed so massively last season.
And just like the Rafa comment, you've again misunderstood the point I was making about building with a foundation in place. Since the last couple of years of Benitez's era the club had no foundation in place - Benitez would be doing one thing, the board another and the owners something else. There's been no clear plan on where the club is going and how we're going there. Benitez goes and they replace him with Hodgson - not only was he useless but also completely different to Benitez. That then gets ripped up and Dalglish/Comolli come in - 18 months later it gets torn up and we start again. Same story with Rodgers - the club was signing players and he was refusing to play them, then in his final summer he gets the players he wants and changes the entire coaching staff, then he and them are sacked a few months later.
Liverpool's single biggest problem over the last 7 or 8 years has been a lack of structure and a clear plan - we've been a club that's made too many short term decisions and when you make these decisions and they go wrong it costs a fortune and takes years to recover. For the first time since Benitez took over in 2004, everybody at the club appears to be pulling in the same direction and that's being led by Klopp.
As for Pep - City finished 4th last season, on goal difference! You can argue that they've not improved but they've not gone backwards. Taking over at City was always going to be harder than at Barca or Bayern because the level of competition here is so great but **** me, just because he doesn't turn things around overnight he's suddenly ****? He's spent money and City should be doing better but look at the changes he's making - he's completely changed the entire way of playing at the club. I know this is the internet and we've got to be hysterical but give him another season before you write him off.
I find all this hand wringing over the respective managerial competence of the Big 5 clubs quite amusing. Only one team can win the league and what we have seen this season is a much more open contest for the most part. Conte and Pochettino are justifiably in the top two spots. Poch has been building on a solid base and there is much to admire about what he has done at Spurs. Conte has delivered a consistency out of Chelsea that looked distant at the end of last season. Spurs for me deserve more respect as I don't believe they have the squad depth of their rivals yet they have put together impressive runs even when without some of their star players. They look the most together "team" and are arguably punching above their weight. Pep, Klopp and Jose all had reconstruction jobs to do and have laid the foundations for a credible challenge next season. However lets remember that Chelsea have not had European football as a distraction/demand on their squad.
Guardiola is wed to playing a certain way and I admire his belligerence in pursuing that. He however had a big job to do as it requires a bit of a philosophy change at City and this with an ageing squad - something that the previous manager did not address. Their performance in the CL was par for City interspersed with some moments of fantastic entertainment.
Klopp has over delivered in my opinion. I think his squad is the weakest of the top 6 in almost every area and yet he has clung to a top 4 spot almost all season. Like Pep he will have learned a lot about the sort of league he manages in now and how different that is from Germany/Spain. If Liverpool get CL this year then that is a tremendous achievement. Again it will be interesting to see how they cope with playing in Europe next season should they achieve it.
Mourinho has flattered a little at times but generally has made progress. However expectation management at United is possibly the biggest task. I like the way he has manoeuvred Rooney out of the side and started to build around some other players. he has got the most out of players that were almost written off under LvG and moved some on. People question his man management at times but I see his handling of Shaw, Martial, Lingard, Rashford as positive. they have achieved nothing in the game other than fat contracts at a top club. Is it any surprise that the last few weeks have seen their best performances of the season. Top 4 looks possible and importantly the fragility that was present under latter SAF, Moyes and LvG seems to have been dealt with post the Chelsea lost last year.
Wenger is undoubtedly the weakest and the league position seems to confirm. He has stability to build on this season and has seemingly taken the club backward. Despite the FA Cup final Arsenal have regressed. They play far poorer quality football then they did for many of the season under his tutelage and have continually failed to address the soft underbelly that seems to open itself to exposure more than ever before. Too many players just haven't stepped up for them for too long - Wallcott, Ozil, Ox, Ramsey. Its hard to see any progress at the Emirates especially in the context of the surge that their local rivals have made.
Arsenal fans have the most right to express their anguish. The others are playing their part in a competitive league and looking to build for the seasons ahead. It augers well for next season.
Guardiola is wed to playing a certain way and I admire his belligerence in pursuing that. He however had a big job to do as it requires a bit of a philosophy change at City and this with an ageing squad - something that the previous manager did not address. Their performance in the CL was par for City interspersed with some moments of fantastic entertainment.
Klopp has over delivered in my opinion. I think his squad is the weakest of the top 6 in almost every area and yet he has clung to a top 4 spot almost all season. Like Pep he will have learned a lot about the sort of league he manages in now and how different that is from Germany/Spain. If Liverpool get CL this year then that is a tremendous achievement. Again it will be interesting to see how they cope with playing in Europe next season should they achieve it.
Mourinho has flattered a little at times but generally has made progress. However expectation management at United is possibly the biggest task. I like the way he has manoeuvred Rooney out of the side and started to build around some other players. he has got the most out of players that were almost written off under LvG and moved some on. People question his man management at times but I see his handling of Shaw, Martial, Lingard, Rashford as positive. they have achieved nothing in the game other than fat contracts at a top club. Is it any surprise that the last few weeks have seen their best performances of the season. Top 4 looks possible and importantly the fragility that was present under latter SAF, Moyes and LvG seems to have been dealt with post the Chelsea lost last year.
Wenger is undoubtedly the weakest and the league position seems to confirm. He has stability to build on this season and has seemingly taken the club backward. Despite the FA Cup final Arsenal have regressed. They play far poorer quality football then they did for many of the season under his tutelage and have continually failed to address the soft underbelly that seems to open itself to exposure more than ever before. Too many players just haven't stepped up for them for too long - Wallcott, Ozil, Ox, Ramsey. Its hard to see any progress at the Emirates especially in the context of the surge that their local rivals have made.
Arsenal fans have the most right to express their anguish. The others are playing their part in a competitive league and looking to build for the seasons ahead. It augers well for next season.