Harmless 39 year old alcoholic woman tortured and beaten to death by girls aged 13 and 14.

Freakbro said:
Every generation thinks the 'youth of today' are worse than before and it's the fortelling of the downfall of society, there was a letter in the papers recently complaining about exactly the same things we all moan about our youth of today, and it was from 1880 :p
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There is real evidence out there that youth culture over the last few years is very different to when we were growing up. Esp in places like London, where the multi-culti dream is enriching everybody :p

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/andrez-harriott/new-youth-culture-_b_7969774.html

At this time, I am acutely aware, along with other practitioners working with youth, that youth culture between the ages of 13-25 has significantly changed in the last decade. We as a society have underestimated the true importance and significance of urban British youth culture. The new culture is shaped by globalisation and multiculturalism, creating a landscape whereby children and young people are operating in a highly vulnerable, exclusive, hierarchical, distorted and under-researched setting.
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Although this guy appears to be one of the "softly softly", "let's try to understand the poor, murdering kids, and how we've let them all down" types :p
 
Robosapien said:
A trifle upsetting, I must admit. :eek:

Condemn indefinitely, no redemption can exist.
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Exactly. The people who think they can be rehabilitated should answer this:

Would you be happy for them to live on your street? Or near your elderly parents?

I sure as hell wouldn't. Not now, not ever. You don't "do your time" for something like this, and come out clean. They tortured and subsequently murdered a woman for pleasure. You don't rehabilitate after that.
 
FoxEye said:
There is real evidence out there that youth culture over the last few years is very different to when we were growing up. Esp in places like London, where the multi-culti dream is enriching everybody :p

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/andrez-harriott/new-youth-culture-_b_7969774.html



Although this guy appears to be one of the "softly softly", "let's try to understand the poor, murdering kids, and how we've let them all down" types :p
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Well he's someone who works on the front line, not some keyboard warrior/expert. :)
 
FoxEye said:
There is real evidence out there that youth culture over the last few years is very different to when we were growing up. Esp in places like London, where the multi-culti dream is enriching everybody :p

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/andrez-harriott/new-youth-culture-_b_7969774.html
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I don't think that article backs up the basis of what you are saying as much as you think it does.

Yes, of course society changes (though not always in the negative context you are implying) hell, technology has changed and moulded society enormously. But this is the bit you and others like John 40 won't like, as it's the 'namby pamby there's a reason for their actions' reasoning, but that article is talking about how children are influenced by the society around them and their reactions are a product of their environment.

So its saying if 'the youth of today' are out of control then that is only the fault of the environment we have created to bring them up in and our actions and inactions towards them.
 
Freakbro said:
So its saying if 'the youth of today' are out of control then that is only the fault of the environment we have created to bring them up in and our actions and inactions towards them.
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But that shouldn't only apply to children.

Adults are equally then a product of their experiences, their environment. The demands society places on adults.

Why do we only apply this reasoning to children? Why do we not pity the 50 year old white male when he murders his business partner?

Instead, this "think of the children" mentality insists that we treat all children as victims, even after they're tortured and killed a defenceless woman.

Why is that?
 
FoxEye said:
But that shouldn't only apply to children.

Adults are equally then a product of their experiences, their environment. The demands society places on adults.

Why do we only apply this reasoning to children? Why do we not pity the 50 year old white male when he murders his business partner?

Instead, this "think of the children" mentality insists that we treat all children as victims, even after they're tortured and killed a defenceless woman.

Why is that?
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I've not said anything about 'think of the children' I've just been arguing against your 'stone people to death in public' as a solution to the criminal activities we have had throughout the whole of human history (which has continued through times where a lot of crimes came with the death penalty. ...still didn't deter people like you think it would - hint: people don't expect to be caught or don't care)

I understand children 'are' different to adults (hence the different name) but that does not automatically abjucate them of any responsibility, and of course they should be punished (involving any form of rehabilitation - whether you think it will successful or not) but I don't support state sponsored death penalty per se for adults or children. Life imprisonment is the only other option, and damn the cost.
 
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Freakbro said:
I understand children 'are' different to adults (hence the different name) but that does not automatically abjucate them of any responsibility, and of course they should be punished (involving any form of rehabilitation - whether you think it will successful or not) but I don't support state sponsored death penalty per se for adults or children. Life imprisonment is the only other option, and damn the cost.
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But the argument as it stands doesn't stand up.

If children are a product of their environment, and thus must be excused their crimes... well surely if society continues to let them down once they become adults, then as adults those people must continue to be excused their crimes?

Life doesn't become easier as an adult. Or more pleasant either. There is more pressure, more stress. And no guarantee of being well treated. If they were not supported as a child, and not supported as an adult, then surely we can't expect them to behave better as adults then children?

So we do we? Do we simply expect that as an adult, regardless of your life experience, you must inevitably develop the same moral compass as someone who's had a healthy upbringing?

It seems that lines of reasoning which lead to making excuses for the children must continue to be valid for adults as well. Otherwise this "we've failed them" reasoning amounts to a massive double standard.
 
FoxEye said:
If children are a product of their environment, and thus must be excused their crimes.
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But no-one has said that.

It's about understanding why those crimes happened, while still dealing with the current perpertrators, so to reduce the chances of them happening again. And empirically that is shown not to be as simplistic as the big stick approach (or stoning in public) to work as a deterrent by fear.
 
Freakbro said:
And empirically that is shown not to be as simplistic as the big stick approach (or stoning in public) to work as a deterrent by fear.
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Hard to be convinced of that entirely. They compare death penalty countries/ US states with non-DP countries/ US states.

There could be many other factors at play when making comparisons between two different regions.

The only "evidence" would be if a state or country employed/ abolished the death penalty, and crime rates increased/ decreased as a consequence.

But comparing us to a US state, or comparing us to Saudi just isn't conclusive.

Heck even comparing two US states doesn't mean a whole lot.
 
Most likely going to sound OTT but I'd bring back hanging, It would make people think twice about taking someones life if they knew they were going to have a long drop with a sudden stop at the bottom.
 
FoxEye said:
Hard to be convinced of that entirely. They compare death penalty countries/ US states with non-DP countries/ US states.

There could be many other factors at play when making comparisons between two different regions.

The only "evidence" would be if a state or country employed/ abolished the death penalty, and crime rates increased/ decreased as a consequence.

But comparing us to a US state, or comparing us to Saudi just isn't conclusive.

Heck even comparing two US states doesn't mean a whole lot.
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Exactly, levels and reasons for crime are complex social, economic and cultural issues combined with individual dysfunctional upbringing. That is not something that is cured by just having a harsh penal system.

We're off the point though, these things happen, they always have, unfortunately we probably won't ever stop them happening. But how we deal with them is the measure of the society imo. And I struggle to see how you could think that stoning a person, let alone a child, to death as a public spectacle would be the measure of a civilised society.
 
Freakbro said:
We're off the point though, these things happen, they always have, unfortunately we probably won't ever stop them happening. But how we deal with them is the measure of the society imo. And I struggle to see how you could think that stoning a person, let alone a child, to death as a public spectacle would be the measure of a civilised society.
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Child or not (13/14 is old enough, imho), they brutally tortured and murdered a woman on a whim. They laughed and took pictures of themselves whilst doing it.

They showed no remorse.

Yet people are worried about how we treat them as society after that? Surely they forfeit the right to humane treatment by savagery such as they have displayed and apparently enjoyed.

I really, really don't understand those who consistently campaign for the rights of criminals. Esp ones such as these. These two girls are poor excuses for human beings.

And they won't get "dealt with". They'll get put in a cushy youth offenders institution, where they'll play pool and playstation, whilst receiving "counselling" before being released to live on benefits. Because they will never, ever be able to get a job. They are now just a burden to society.
 
FoxEye said:
I saw something on the TV the other day, which said your average parent spends only 4 hours with their kids a week.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/parents-spend-just-34-minutes-5518081
^^This says 30 mins a day.
That's a shockingly small investment into your own children. They're basically left to bring themselves up.
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I wonder what counts as time without distraction.
I assume in the car on a commute somewhere doesn't count.
Does eating meals together count?
 
Hikari Kisugi said:
I wonder what counts as time without distraction.
I assume in the car on a commute somewhere doesn't count.
Does eating meals together count?
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Commutes I would imagine 100% do not count as time spent with your children. I'd imagine that driving is for most of us quite the distraction ;) And most kids these days will be on their phones or tablets during the commute anyhow.

Mealtime I guess depends on the family. Some families do make mealtimes a social event, some others eat in silence, others will eat in different rooms or different times.
 
Dicehunter said:
Most likely going to sound OTT but I'd bring back hanging, It would make people think twice about taking someones life if they knew they were going to have a long drop with a sudden stop at the bottom.
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Do people really still believe this utter tripe? It really should be common knowledge by now that capital punishment doesn't serve as a deterrent. People aren't usually thinking about the consequences too much when they commit this sort of crime.
 
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