Hillsborough Disaster

Purdy said:
Police responsibility, not crowds, if it is opened for them to use they are to assume it is safe.
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Complete rubbish, as with previous post, the police open the gates at Arsenal station, and everyone could assume its safe and keep pushing to the front, this would result in many deaths from people on the other end being pushed onto the track, the trend for people to ignoring common sense and taking zero personal responsibility does my head in.

THere is a vast wall of people infront of me, so because a gate is open somewhere I can assume if I shove everyone forward everyone will be fine?

This is where Liverpool fans "lose" the rest of us, the sheer absurdity of ignoring how the crushing happened.

Two cases recently of a similar mould where certain forum members decided the guys who broke into a train yard, stole explosives and threw them in a fire weren't responsible, it was the train company for not locking up the explosives. The family who decided the kids weren't responsible for choosing to ignore a railway crossing gate being down, hop over and get killed, its the companies fault for some ridiculous reason.

The majority of fans aren't responsible, if you walk into an area and there is plenty of space and you aren't shoving people to get in, that is one thing, the people at the back who did, are HUGELY responsible.
 
He's not blaming the fans entirely, but if you look at this entire situation, I'm sure there is some degree of error on their part. If a gate is open, for example, it doesn't make it a free for all, whether it should have been open or not.

I also believe there may have been some less than 'nice' fans there too, its a large crowd of people, you're bound to find some weird folk in there.

Nobody here can say: "Not a single fan did anything wrong, or behaved improperly that day", because we all know that's pretty much not going to be the case.
 
drunkenmaster said:
Complete rubbish, as with previous post, the police open the gates at Arsenal station, and everyone could assume its safe and keep pushing to the front, this would result in many deaths from people on the other end being pushed onto the track, the trend for people to ignoring common sense and taking zero personal responsibility does my head in.

THere is a vast wall of people infront of me, so because a gate is open somewhere I can assume if I shove everyone forward everyone will be fine?

This is where Liverpool fans "lose" the rest of us, the sheer absurdity of ignoring how the crushing happened.
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The opening of the outside gate didn't cause 'shoving' to any great degree, it did allow a large body of people to move down the tunnel onto the already full sections of the terrace. They didn't know it was full because the Police and stewards failed to tell them, failed to direct them to the empty sections.

Once they got onto the terrace they couldn't go back because there were hundreds of people walking down the tunnel behind them, again failed by the Police and stewards.
 
strocky said:
Seen this posted on another forum, think it's worthy of a re-post -:
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Not really.

Because that isnt the situation.

Its not "THE" authorities, it was south yorkshire police covering their arse for putting a completely inexperienced man in charge of the policing of a major sporting event.

They proceeded to lie, to everybody, the press and the government (Thatcher was lied to, repeatedly) to cover themselves.

All this proves is that the south yorkshire police, at the time, were a bunch of lazy, self serving cowards.
 
Diesel said:
The opening of the outside gate didn't cause 'shoving' to any great degree, it did allow a large body of people to move down the tunnel onto the already full sections of the terrace. They didn't know it was full because the Police and stewards failed to tell them, failed to direct them to the empty sections.

Once they got onto the terrace they couldn't go back because there were hundreds of people walking down the tunnel behind them, again failed by the Police and stewards.
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But at some point those hundreds of people behind come to an end, it is these people the previous posters are pointing out not the ones that got in early and couldn't get out again.

The people at the very back of that crowd could have moved back, they didn't. They chose to carry on pushing everyone else forward out of fear of missing game knowing full well they in the event of any crush they'd be alright coz they're at the back.
 
I didn't want to post again in here but I do feel quite strongly about it.

I don't know how you can say that the match goers were not at least partly at fault. Some people in that crowd/queue of people decided "this queue isn't moving fast enough, I don't want to miss any of the match, therefore I'm going to put all of my body weight on the people in front of me and force it along".

Nobody is saying that every person in that queue did this, but there were clearly enough that did to cause the crush.

A crush doesn't just happen if people are queueing in an orderly fashion.

Some people including those posting in this thread have the blinkers completely on now, and it's not fair to just call people a **** for pointing out these obvious things.

Just because there was a coverup doesn't mean that you can arbitrarily blame the police for EVERYTHING, and that EVERY negative thing said or reported about a match goer is automatically untrue.

It may be insensitive to bring up those things that were said and reported on back then, but it is in fact the Liverpool collective who continually bring them up just so that they can smack people round the face with it. The reality is that it is not conclusive which parts are born from truth and which parts were made up or simply embellished upon to shift blame onto the fans.

We all know that there are other factors involved such as poor stadium design, lax council/safety regulations etc.

If we can't have a balanced discussion about it here though without it descending to personal insults then the thread should just be locked and the topic banned from the forums.
 
grimm said:
I didn't want to post again in here but I do feel quite strongly about it.

I don't know how you can say that the match goers were not at least partly at fault. Some people in that crowd/queue of people decided "this queue isn't moving fast enough, I don't want to miss any of the match, therefore I'm going to put all of my body weight on the people in front of me and force it along".

Nobody is saying that every person in that queue did this, but there were clearly enough that did to cause the crush.

A crush doesn't just happen if people are queueing in an orderly fashion.

Some people including those posting in this thread have the blinkers completely on now, and it's not fair to just call people a **** for pointing out these obvious things.

Just because there was a coverup doesn't mean that you can arbitrarily blame the police for EVERYTHING, and that EVERY negative thing said or reported about a match goer is automatically untrue.

It may be insensitive to bring up those things that were said and reported on back then, but it is in fact the Liverpool collective who continually bring them up just so that they can smack people round the face with it. The reality is that it is not conclusive which parts are born from truth and which parts were made up or simply embellished upon to shift blame onto the fans.

We all know that there are other factors involved such as poor stadium design, lax council/safety regulations etc.

If we can't have a balanced discussion about it here though without it descending to personal insults then the thread should just be locked and the topic banned from the forums.
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Quote For Truth
 
Swearing every 10 words doesn't make your point any more valid, it just makes you look like a keyboard warrior.

Where there's smoke there's fire. Somebody had to be pushing to cause a crush.
 
The police were at fault for allowing the situation to happen. Opening the gates of a section designed for say 500 (guess) people, with more than that waiting outside to get in is stupid to say the least.

The Fans have a semblence of responsiblity though, when the 501th fan tries to get the in at fully capacity section, and has to push and shove to get in thats when alarm bells should start ringing for each individual trying to get in.

What happened after the disastor with the police not allowing ambulances on the pitch and not opening the gate to the field was inexcusable and disgusting.
 
inogen said:
Just watch the video, read the accounts, try to understand what happened that day and stop chatting **** like a know-it-all ***** who thinks that football crowd management in 1989 was anything like it is today at football, or like queuing for a ******* tube. ****.
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Calm down...
 
atpbx said:
Not really.

Because that isnt the situation.

Its not "THE" authorities, it was south yorkshire police covering their arse for putting a completely inexperienced man in charge of the policing of a major sporting event.

They proceeded to lie, to everybody, the press and the government (Thatcher was lied to, repeatedly) to cover themselves.

All this proves is that the south yorkshire police, at the time, were a bunch of lazy, self serving cowards.
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If if was ONLY the SYP that where at fault and complicit in the coverup, why did a Tory MP Irvine Patnick, brief Kelvin MacKenzie about the "message" to be put out? :rolleyes:
 
inogen said:
Just watch the video, read the accounts, try to understand what happened that day and stop chatting **** like a know-it-all ***** who thinks that football crowd management in 1989 was anything like it is today at football, or like queuing for a ******* tube. ****.
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Crowd management in 1989 wasn't the same as today because the nature of the crowds weren't the same.

Back then they were 99.9% adult male, tanked up on booze and looking to let off steam by shouting obscenities and occasionally having the odd fight.

And no, I'm not labelling the Liverpool fans on that day with the above sentence, I'm merely pointing out the reason police tactics back then were vastly different than today. The police treated them like animals because they had proved time and time again that given the opportunity they were perfectly capable of acting like animals.
 
inogen said:
Just watch the video, read the accounts, try to understand what happened that day and stop chatting **** like a know-it-all ***** who thinks that football crowd management in 1989 was anything like it is today at football, or like queuing for a ******* tube. ****.
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Well personal insults aside, where did I say football crowd management in 1989 was like it is today? More to the point, can you tell me how it's not?

Every time I've queue to go in, I could have not waited my turn and shoved everyone, I could have chosen to go in a different area and pushed anyone in the way.... I don't.

You CAN'T have people crushed without people pushing. Have someone stand next to a wall, with one person either side and you behind them, now explain how they can be crushed with no one pushing them?

If you take the time to read, you would see I didn't compare the management there to anything, merely, basic numbers, if there are too many people in any situation you can choose to push into a smaller space, or you can you know, choose not too.

I've been shoved while the last person on a train and people tell them to **** off the trains full, and they stop. I've had to shove back against others shoving me to let them know there is no more room, this is how many things work in the world. When everyone just pushes forward together you'd have a problem ANYWHERE.

People get crushed at sales because people queue up then decide they are going to ignore everyone and their own safety and just make a made dash for a small gap.

There are two very significant and different things that happened that day, the crushing and how it was dealt with, the crushing is largely whoever was pushing from the back fault, how it was dealt with is nearly completely the polices fault.
 
I have always been a little confused by Hillsborough. It seems to be either the polices fault or the fans fault. There doesn't seem to be any room for "the police made a mess of it but the fans were largely at fault too.

By all accounts it was a complete mess in a lot of areas that day and the fact that a lot of the football fans at the time were less than savoury characters didn't help.

The police assumed (probably correctly for 90% of the time) that some fans were causing trouble and that was the issue rather than the crushing. I have no idea how people think this is that cut and dry.

When you are dealing with dodgy characters week in week out who will take advantage of a lapse of concentration, the police quite naturally do build up a prejudice towards those fans. Its a case of the boy who cried wolf. Both sides were equally at fault in my view its just that no police died and they are much easier to apportion blame to. You know who the police officers on duty were, how do you find out who was pushing from the back in a huge crowd?
 
I'm not sure whether I should be surprised at the amount of retarded posts in this thread. Every single panel and inquest has cleared Liverpool supporters of any blame for the disaster yet we still get people blaming the supporters.

If these clowns aren't going to pay any attention to the findings of experts then they're not going to pay any attention to what I say or anybody else so leave them to it. They're either trolls or ****s, either way it's not worth your time.

David Cameron:
Today's report is black and white. The Liverpool fans were not the cause of the disaster
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I despair. I really do.

There's absolutely no documentary or video evidence that the crush was caused by people pushing and shoving. Not in a way that didn't happen at every big football match, all over the country, every weekend. So to blame Liverpool fans for pushing and shoving, is blaming pretty much everyone that stood on terraces for the 70 odd years previous.

To even think that is a contributory cause, never mind feel the need to express that thought in face of the evidence that's been produced by the independent panel is just at best, plain irrational and pig ignorant. At worst, vindictive and malicious.
 
Russinating said:
Swearing every 10 words doesn't make your point any more valid, it just makes you look like a keyboard warrior.
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I think a lot of people in this thread are acting out because they realise it's what's considered to be an emotive topic and they know they can get away more here than elsewhere under the guise of indignation.
 
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