Hillsborough Disaster

What DM has said is true.

Nothing he said was true. It's uneducated nonsense.

I never stood on terraces but I've watched plenty of old matches and spoke to a lot of people that regularly did stand on terraces. Supporters were packed in like sardines - they could barely move at the best of times. To the people at the back, trying to get into the stand, nothing unusual was happening. Do you really believe had they known that people were being crushed at the front, that they'd carry on trying to get into the stand?
 
I have been in plenty of places where everyone is being crushed but as soon as someone starts shouting or pushing back, you get a ripple effect that travels through the crowd and stops it. People are pretty good in general when it comes to things like this so why didn't anyone stop pushing?

Because of the peculiar design of the Lepping's Lane end and the two central pens, which were full, whilst the other side pens were almost empty, the tunnel, the open gate, people at the back were totally detached from the crush at the front. They couldn't see them, hear them or had any idea what was going on.

People were walking relatively unobstructed towards the tunnel and those that been there before were aware that this was a usual bottleneck. What they didn't know was that 2 central pens were already crammed so full that overspill from those pens obstructed people from getting into the side pens and the more people went into the tunnel, they were crushing those at the front even by attempting to get into the side pens.

It's not like it was a rugby scrum from the back. Not like that at all.
 
Ok - every legal expert that's looked into the disaster has cleared Liverpool fans of any responsibility and praised the actions of the supporters.

And you don't think for one minute that a report that was only commissioned due to the constant pressure from Liverpool fans was ever going to be anything but biased and conform to every wish the people who called for it wanted to see?

If Esso commissioned a report on how global warming was rubbish you'd rightly condemn it because the people who inspired it wanted the findings to meet the pre-determined conclusions they had.

Had this latest report not met all the Liverpool fans' demands for what it should find, it would have simply been disregarded and another one would be called for.
 
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Nothing he said was true. It's uneducated nonsense.

I never stood on terraces but I've watched plenty of old matches and spoke to a lot of people that regularly did stand on terraces. Supporters were packed in like sardines - they could barely move at the best of times. To the people at the back, trying to get into the stand, nothing unusual was happening. Do you really believe had they known that people were being crushed at the front, that they'd carry on trying to get into the stand?

I don't think that you can accuse football fans of the time of having much common sense. There is a reason it was completely blamed on hooligans in the crowd at the time. Football at the time was not a family affair. I have been in venues and stadiums with thousands of people and you never get pushed that much because people won't allow it.

Who was pushing all these fans into such a small space? To crush people in a crowd to the extent of Hillsborough, you have to be pushing very hard from the back and there has to be a good number of you doing it.

When there are hundreds of people in front of you, how much pressure can one person generate?
 
Because of the peculiar design of the Lepping's Lane end and the two central pens, which were full, whilst the other side pens were almost empty, the tunnel, the open gate, people at the back were totally detached from the crush at the front. They couldn't see them, hear them or had any idea what was going on.

People were walking relatively unobstructed towards the tunnel and those that been there before were aware that this was a usual bottleneck. What they didn't know was that 2 central pens were already crammed so full that overspill from those pens obstructed people from getting into the side pens and the more people went into the tunnel, they were crushing those at the front even by attempting to get into the side pens.

It's not like it was a rugby scrum from the back. Not like that at all.

I still cannot understand how it happened. If you came across a room that was full to the brim with people to the extent that the door was completely blocked, how would you fit another 50 people in without pushing.
 
I don't think that you can accuse football fans of the time of having much common sense. There is a reason it was completely blamed on hooligans in the crowd at the time. Football at the time was not a family affair. I have been in venues and stadiums with thousands of people and you never get pushed that much because people won't allow it.

Who was pushing all these fans into such a small space? To crush people in a crowd to the extent of Hillsborough, you have to be pushing very hard from the back and there has to be a good number of you doing it.

When there are hundreds of people in front of you, how much pressure can one person generate?


Right... here we go again...

The result was that many thousands of fans entered through a narrow tunnel at the rear of the terrace and into the two already overcrowded central pens, causing a huge crush at the front of the terrace. Hundreds of people were pressed against one another and against the fencing by the weight of the crowd behind them. The people entering were unaware of the problems at the fence; police or stewards would normally have stood at the entrance to the tunnel if the central pens had reached capacity, and would otherwise have directed fans into the side pens, but on this occasion they did not, for reasons which have never been fully explained.[20] A BBC TV news report later stated that if police had posted two police horses correctly, they would have acted as breakwaters directing many fans into side pens, but on this occasion, this was not done.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillsborough_disaster#The_crush
 
Blimey indeed.

"Some degree of error". So either fans actions directly or indirectly led to the deaths. Or were part of a causal chain?

But no-ones blaming the fans?

Make your mind up.

What are you struggling with?

There were a lot of things happening on that day, it's not as if that fans were stood in an orderly line and were all shot by the police for no reason... it's not that clear cut. If you can't see this then you're quite clearly a bit deluded.

I don't think that, overall, the fans were to blame. I know they weren't from the inquest and I trust that information is correct. All I've said is that:

- It's quite possible that some football fans were nothing more than scum and could have been capable of the acts that the police allegedly fabricated about them. Note I've said 'capable', not that they actually did anything wrong.

- Secondly, I also find it believable that the fans were all pushing to get into the stadium in a hurry, and that, coupled with the dire crowd control is what caused the disaster. I'm not saying that makes it their fault, but as someone pointed out, if they were all stood in an orderly fashion (I know this wasn't the case in those days, but it doesn't change my point) there wouldn't have been a problem to start with.

Unfortunately you seem completely incapable of discussing the events and would rather just repeatedly insult people and act like a petulant child. Just because this is a sensitive topic doesn't mean forum rules can be broken. Now, due to your frankly silly replies you've attempted to misrepresent what I was saying and make it seem like I'm having a go at the Liverpool fans - I'm not.
 
Nothing he said was true. It's uneducated nonsense.

I never stood on terraces but I've watched plenty of old matches and spoke to a lot of people that regularly did stand on terraces. Supporters were packed in like sardines - they could barely move at the best of times. To the people at the back, trying to get into the stand, nothing unusual was happening. Do you really believe had they known that people were being crushed at the front, that they'd carry on trying to get into the stand?

I didnt' say they did, however there is a point where people have room to stand and aren't being crushed, and a point where there are too many people, and the only way you cause crushing is by people at the back pushing when there is no more room left.

Have you ever pushed someone who is standing alone in a big open area, and its easy. Ever pushed someone surrounded by people, its much harder. There is a point with common sense where you are pushing too hard and its stupid and dangerous. It is literally impossible to not have passed this point.

If I go to a stadium and it takes THAT much effort to get inside, well I'm either ignorant or I wouldn't push that hard because I would realise that if there are THAT many people in there that I have to push THAT hard to get in, its ridiculously dangerous. Same goes with a train, if people slightly push to make a little room and get on, when you push and the crowd resists, you stop. Again this happens everywhere, it happens on trains. There is a point where it becomes obvious that pushing more is dangerous and there is no more room. I've been right at the front of a platform leaving Arsenal and somehow don't get shoved from behind, because there are that many people that everyone at the back has sensibly stopped rather than just keep going.

THere is shoulder to shoulder jostling in most stadiums, particularly leaving as everyone leaves at the same time while they often go in over a heck of a lot longer. Every single time there is a tight crowd, every single time at every single stadium if people at the back just start shoving forwards, you would get crushing, people CHOOSE not to do this.

Clearly at some point people were pushing that hard. Ignorance that your shoving at the back was hurting people at the front does NOT mean you aren't responsible, it doesn't mean you did it on purpose, if those at the back hadn't pushed forwards, the people at the front would not have been crushed, its as simple as that.

It's also worth noting that people can be crushed in area's that aren't pushed past capacity, its happened quite a lot of times, sporting events, concerts, when a completely safe amount of people for no reason surge forwards and crush people. The capacity doesn't have a lot to do with crushing its a crowd acting irresponsibly and dangerously, this can happen anywhere, at any time, for basically any reason, usually ignorance of the danger. All it takes is some people at the back to decide to push forwards ignoring the danger, not even considering it, and people can get crushed. Considering this area was packed full and people were still piling in, I don't think they intended it, but it was pure stupidity. If people pack into an area that is already completely full, what do people think will be the outcome.
 
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I don't think that you can accuse football fans of the time of having much common sense. There is a reason it was completely blamed on hooligans in the crowd at the time. Football at the time was not a family affair. I have been in venues and stadiums with thousands of people and you never get pushed that much because people won't allow it.

Who was pushing all these fans into such a small space? To crush people in a crowd to the extent of Hillsborough, you have to be pushing very hard from the back and there has to be a good number of you doing it.

When there are hundreds of people in front of you, how much pressure can one person generate?

I'm not too sure what you're trying to say.

Yes, hooliganism was an issue back then however that played no part in Hillsborough.

How can a supporter, with 1000's of people in front of them and it being common place back then to be packed together so tightly that you can barely more, know that there's an issue at the front of the stand?

About 5 years ago I was discussing the Hillsborough situation with an old teacher of mine, who was at the 1987 semi-final at Hillsborough. He told me that he must have moved about 20 meters between where he was at the start of the game to half-time, simply from the pressure behind him of other supporters. I was also speaking with my Dad last night and he told me about a game he went to see at Stamford Bridge where his friend ended up losing both his shoes from people stepping on his heels and the pressure from those behind pushing him forwards.
 
What are you struggling with?

There were a lot of things happening on that day, it's not as if that fans were stood in an orderly line and were all shot by the police for no reason... it's not that clear cut. If you can't see this then you're quite clearly a bit deluded.

I don't think that, overall, the fans were to blame. I know they weren't from the inquest and I trust that information is correct. All I've said is that:

- It's quite possible that some football fans were nothing more than scum and could have been capable of the acts that the police allegedly fabricated about them. Note I've said 'capable', not that they actually did anything wrong.

- Secondly, I also find it believable that the fans were all pushing to get into the stadium in a hurry, and that, coupled with the dire crowd control is what caused the disaster. I'm not saying that makes it their fault, but as someone pointed out, if they were all stood in an orderly fashion (I know this wasn't the case in those days, but it doesn't change my point) there wouldn't have been a problem to start with.

Unfortunately you seem completely incapable of discussing the events and would rather just repeatedly insult people and act like a petulant child. Just because this is a sensitive topic doesn't mean forum rules can be broken. Now, due to your frankly silly replies you've attempted to misrepresent what I was saying and make it seem like I'm having a go at the Liverpool fans - I'm not.

Oh I'm certainly not deluded. And I didn't misrepresent anything.

You said "degree of error", which infers culpability, yet you still think you're not blaming fans.

The two are mutually exclusive.
 
Right... here we go again...

The result was that many thousands of fans entered through a narrow tunnel at the rear of the terrace and into the two already overcrowded central pens, causing a huge crush at the front of the terrace. Hundreds of people were pressed against one another and against the fencing by the weight of the crowd behind them. The people entering were unaware of the problems at the fence; police or stewards would normally have stood at the entrance to the tunnel if the central pens had reached capacity, and would otherwise have directed fans into the side pens, but on this occasion they did not, for reasons which have never been fully explained.[20] A BBC TV news report later stated that if police had posted two police horses correctly, they would have acted as breakwaters directing many fans into side pens, but on this occasion, this was not done.

As DM keeps saying, you can't can't have people crushed without a large weight of people behind you doing that crushing, whether they knew people were dying because of it isn't really being disputed by anyone here.

The fact is at some point the people entering that tunnel had to have slowed down due to congestion, and then for people at the front to be crushed you need a further amount of people forcing or pushing themselves through the tunnel despite clearly being stopped by the congestion, people aren't zombies that just keep moving forward regardless of the obstacles in their way. Whether they directly knew people were being crushed to death isn't the point, it's the fact they knew they were pushing their way in which then automatically leads to that possibility.
 
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Once gate C had been opened police directed fans through the gate. The most obvious entrance to the terraces was through the tunnel opposite into pens 3 and 4. Evidence would later be given that in previous years police and/or stewards would stand at the entrance to the tunnel if these central pens had reached capacity and would direct fans to the side pens.

In 1989 however, no such direction took place as fans headed innocently into already overcrowded pens.
 
you're quite clearly a bit deluded.

No. The people that have no real understanding of the situation or experience/knowledge of similar situations, that are arguing against countless experts that have absolved Liverpool supporters of any blame are the deluded ones.
 
Oh I'm certainly not deluded. And I didn't misrepresent anything.

You said "degree of error", which infers culpability, yet you still think you're not blaming fans.

The two are mutually exclusive.

Yes, the error was that the fans were trying to get into [push their way] an overcrowded 'pen'.

Once they realised they couldn't get in, they should have backed up. If they had done this, it would have helped avert the disaster.

If I've missed something and it was impossible for the fans at the back to move backwards, please enlighten me.

No. The people that have no real understanding of the situation or experience/knowledge of similar situations, that are arguing against countless experts that have absolved Liverpool supporters of any blame are the deluded ones.

And that's fair enough, but that doesn't change the fact that this is not a black and white situation. The events that transpired were quite complicated - as we can see.
 
I'm not too sure what you're trying to say.

Yes, hooliganism was an issue back then however that played no part in Hillsborough.

How can a supporter, with 1000's of people in front of them and it being common place back then to be packed together so tightly that you can barely more, know that there's an issue at the front of the stand?

About 5 years ago I was discussing the Hillsborough situation with an old teacher of mine, who was at the 1987 semi-final at Hillsborough. He told me that he must have moved about 20 meters between where he was at the start of the game to half-time, simply from the pressure behind him of other supporters. I was also speaking with my Dad last night and he told me about a game he went to see at Stamford Bridge where his friend ended up losing both his shoes from people stepping on his heels and the pressure from those behind pushing him forwards.

Yet, millions of people thousands of times managed it without problem, why? because yes, you can "feel" how busy an area is. If there is space the whole crowd moves forward, when there isn't space, the crowd resists being pushed forward, and the only way to then move it forward is overpower the crowd, the people at the back were pushing HARDER than the people at the front were pushing backwards.... that isn't soft, that isn't normal, that is WAY to much.
 
Yes, the error was that the fans were trying to get into [push their way] an overcrowded 'pen'.

Once they realised they couldn't get in, they should have backed up. If they had done this, it would have helped avert the disaster.

If I've missed something and it was impossible for the fans at the back to move backwards, please enlighten me.

I'm guessing you were a regular supporter standing on terraces back then Robbo? How could somebody with 1000's of people in front of them and being used to being packed into pens so tightly that they couldn't move, know the pen they were trying to get into was full? Was the pen blocked off? Were police/stewards there to tell them it was full? Were they directed to the outer pens?
 
And that's fair enough, but that doesn't change the fact that this is not a black and white situation. The events that transpired were quite complicated - as we can see.

How are you in a position to say it's not a black and white situation when every inquest and panel have made it clear that the supporters were not to blame?
 
I'm guessing you were a regular supporter standing on terraces back then Robbo? How could somebody with 1000's of people in front of them and being used to being packed into pens so tightly that they couldn't move, know the pen they were trying to get into was full? Was the pen blocked off? Were police/stewards there to tell them it was full? Were they directed to the outer pens?

I was not, no. That's a very valid point you've made, I suppose the police should have made it immediately obvious to them.

How are you in a position to say it's not a black and white situation when every inquest and panel have made it clear that the supporters were not to blame?

I'm in agreement with their findings, I'm just discussing the situation. I'm not pushing my opinion as fact. I want to understand exactly what happened.
 
Yes, the error was that the fans were trying to get into [push their way] an overcrowded 'pen'.

Once they realised they couldn't get in, they should have backed up. If they had done this, it would have helped avert the disaster.

If I've missed something and it was impossible for the fans at the back to move backwards, please enlighten me.

Yes, it was impossible for them to go backwards as by the time your realised there was a crush at the front, there was already 1000s of people behind you.

The Lepping's Lane end held over 10,000 - most of this 10,000 ended up entering the terrace through the tunnel and into 2 pens that were supposed to hold 2,200 between them. (although they'd been told to reduce this capacity to 1,600 due to the crush barriers not meeting safety standards, but the still sold 2,200 tickets for these pens).

You can't seriously believe that once you're in one of those central pens, you've got the choice to turn around?
 
I'm guessing you were a regular supporter standing on terraces back then Robbo? How could somebody with 1000's of people in front of them and being used to being packed into pens so tightly that they couldn't move, know the pen they were trying to get into was full? Was the pen blocked off? Were police/stewards there to tell them it was full? Were they directed to the outer pens?

I think we are all struggling with the idea that no one coming into the pens knew that it was too full yet somewhere people we being crushed. Where did this pressure come from if not the back of the pen where the new fans were coming in?

In a number of posts you have said that the people coming in didn't know that it was too full; well how did people at the front get crushed if there was no pressure being put on the pens from the back (the new fans coming in).
 
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