Hillsborough Disaster

[Weebull]

Ah right, that didn't seem clear from the document to me. Are you sure it's made up by the police? There are always a few bad apples you know... To me it is believable that someone could have said/done those things however I imagine the police just used those few idiots as a way to use the whole Liverpool crowd as a scapegoat. Not trying to cloud the real issue or say that it gets the police off the hook, but there are always a few scumbags around.

Tell you what, explain to me exactly how a "scumbag" in a crowd could actually cause 96 deaths by crushing, by themselves? Or even a group of them?

Actually don't, I'll save you the bother - they can't, and they didn't.

It's hardly like war crimes here. They weren't rampaging mobs beating the **** out of randoms during the crisis because, believe it or not, even the worst hooligans in that crowd were too busy trying not to die themselves.

 

[estebanrey]

I'm sure there was the odd idiot at the game, just like there is at every football match back then and today

You cannot compare today's football crowds with those of the 80s and you can't claim 80s football crowd has the "odd idiot just like today" with a straight face.

Football crowds were a different animal then, today going to the football is a family orientated event, then it was still very much the culture of a lads letting of steam after a few pints in the pub.

My parents went to football in the 80s and they refused to let me go until I was 16, I was told a football terrace was no place for a child to go to. Compare that to today when Football Clubs offer all manner of family tickets and incentives.

The way I see it, no one is wholly to blame for what happened that day and everyone there shares some of the responsibility. Had the police come out straight away, held there hands up and said 'look we got a few things wrong' it would have resulted in a month or two of the police looking an bit silly then it would have blown over.

But they decided to capitalise on Liverpool's recent history of hooliganism (Heysel) to deflect any responsibility they had onto the fans which in turn the Liverpool fans are now trying to do back to deflect all the blame onto the police.

 

[Newbie007]

The way I see it, no one is wholly to blame for what happened that day and everyone there shares some of the responsibility. .

Um, the police are 100% to blame for what happended that day, the ******* inquiry has proved that

they decided to capitalise on Liverpool's recent history of hooliganism (Heysel) to deflect any responsibility they had onto the fans which in turn the Liverpool fans are now trying to do back to deflect all the blame onto the police.

Its not about "deflect all the blame onto the police", its been about the truth of that day and the subsequent cover up and lies told.

Had the police come out straight away, held there hands up and said 'look we got a few things wrong' it would have resulted in a month or two of the police looking an bit silly then it would have blown over.

the deaths of 96 people would have blown over within a month or 2, really? Really??

 

[estebanrey]

Um, the police are 100% to blame for what happended that day, the ******* inquiry has proved that

So there was no pushing? No rushing to get into the game? The fans all lined up in a straight queue and were forced through the turnstile by police were they?

The police leaving the turnstiles open was gross negligence but that doesn't mean the people who took advantage of that situation and tried to squeeze themselves into the ground are blameless either.

Its not about "deflect all the blame onto the police", its been about the truth of that day and the subsequent cover up and lies told.

No, it's about getting (rightly) annoyed by a Sun headline and starting a vendetta against the police and the media for 23 years asking for inquiry after inquiry until you get what you want to hear.

the deaths of 96 people would have blown over within a month or 2, really? Really??

Yes. Had the police admitted partial or most of the responsibility then we certainly wouldn't have had 23 years of this.

The families will never get over their loss regardless of how the aftermath was handled, when I talk about it 'blowing over' I meant from a media point of view.

There have been plenty of football stadium disasters but we don't bang on about them on an annual basis like we do with Hillsbrough.

 

[Pigeon_Killer]

There have been plenty of football stadium disasters but we don't bang on about them on an annual basis like we do with Hillsbrough.

**** off.

 

[Robbo]

Estebanrey is deliberately confrontational about everything, always has been.

 

[Newbie007]

..

Think you've just proved you know nothing about this, just the usual diatribe spouted by 'fans' of other teams, whats next? ticketless and drunken fans.

****

 

[estebanrey]

Estebanrey is deliberately confrontational about everything, always has been.

That's right attack the man, not the argument.

Think you've just proved you know nothing about this, just the usual diatribe spouted by 'fans' of other teams, whats next? ticketless and drunken fans.

****

Don't put words in my mouth, I never mentioned drunkenness or ticketless fans.

I've been clear, BOTH 'sides' share some of the blame and the police certainly derserve the majority of the burden of it.

But just because I'm not jumping on the bandwagon of demonizing the police and using words like 'murder' doesn't make me Kelvin McKenzie.

 

[Robbo]

That's right attack the man, not the argument.

I'm not 'attacking' you, per se, just pointing out that you are very confrontational. I knew exactly what your post was going to say before I read it.

I can understand exactly where you're coming from, but people are aggrieved (still) and won't respond well to what you're saying.

 

[Tummy]

**** off.

+ 1

 

[jas72]

I was at Parkhead that day for Rangers were playing a Scottish cup game. We were squeezed into the section beside the then "jungle" which was empty. I was with my mate and we were in a panic situation this was 20 minutes before kick off and were starting to be squashed against the crush barriers. They then opened the gates into the jungle section. There was a surge and I along with my mate was plastered against the railings. I was so sure that I was going to faint as the pressure was immense. I started to kick and punch some space from before me and thankfully after what seemed like an eternity I was literally rolled along the fence until I stumbled through the gate gasping for air. Have to say it's been one of the most frightening experiences of my life.

On the bus home we heard of the disaster at hillsborough and I can and still do think about those poor people who didn't have a gate opened for them to be released.

 

[Tummy]

So there was no pushing? No rushing to get into the game? The fans all lined up in a straight queue and were forced through the turnstile by police were they?

The police leaving the turnstiles open was gross negligence but that doesn't mean the people who took advantage of that situation and tried to squeeze themselves into the ground are blameless either.

Dross. Police forced people in to one section of the stand. They refused to allow ambulances in to help and refused to open the gates. It's very basic math, the space wasn't big enough for the people they were forcing to go inside.

There was some pushing, but it was a panic.

No, it's about getting (rightly) annoyed by a Sun headline and starting a vendetta against the police and the media for 23 years asking for inquiry after inquiry until you get what you want to hear.

No, I don't want 'sorry's' from a Toff government who don't care. I want justice for that day. I want those responsible punished.

There have been plenty of football stadium disasters but we don't bang on about them on an annual basis like we do with Hillsbrough.

'We' ? Who do you support?

There haven't been many that have been covered up and dealt with quite like Hillsborough, 96 people lost their lives that day through no fault of their own. I had friends and family in the crush. It was horrible.

 

[inogen]

it's not really as cut and dry as that though, is it? that is infact quite an awful thing to say.

i'm not saying the police are blameless as they're not and neither are a small minority of fans.

this was a tragedy, no doubt and should've been clarified a lot sooner than this but still, to make such comments about the police is harsh. the police are humans and were obviously ill equipped and under trained for such an occassion but the proportion of blame cannot be placed purely on the police. there are many people who are accountable.

what really strikes me as worrying, is how pure planning, observation and common sense could've prevented this happening in the first place.

No, I'm sorry. I know it's an awful thing to say, but it's true. The Police, through their disorganisation, negligence, recklessness and indeed their methods, killed 96 people.

They then immediately embarked on an ad-hoc and systematic cover up in an attempt to absolve themselves of any responsibility, by blaming the dead and survivors for the deaths caused.

If individual officers on the day did as much as they could to help the situation, then fair play to them. Most of them didn't. Most of them stood by and were either wilfully or ignorantly complicit. The ones that didn't and spoke up about it mostly left the force in the aftermath and have had little press.

Liverpool fans were betrayed by the Police that day. From the rank and file to the Super Intendant in charge. It's an uncomfortable truth, but one which we have to acknowledge and the officers in charge have had to live with since. They've just done their best to obfuscate it from view. I'll be very surprised if, now the truth is out, some of the Police involved aren't found legally culpable for the deaths.

The very thought that "a minority of fans" were in any way at fault for the deaths is a fantasy spun by the Police to cover their own arses. That is one of the main findings of yesterdays panel.

 

[strocky]

Seen this posted on another forum, think it's worthy of a re-post -:

Well there you have it.

You now know your worth to the establishment.

Even dying in the most tragic horrendous circumstances imaginable, the first instinct of the authorities is not to console, comfort or sympathise, it's to seek to smear, falsely accuse and demean those with no living breath to answer back.

Do not expect to be laid out and left to rest in peace. Be prepared to be posthumously inspected to see if you had been drinking.

Do not expect your ID to be used in the first instance to contact relatives or loved ones, rather expect your living details to be run through a police check for any criminal record first.

This is the truth.

This is your value.

Next time the establishment presses a flag into your hand and asks you to wave for the nation at royalty, dignataries or at an Olympics or any other sop to pull the wool over our eyes, tell them to roll it up in a copy of the Sun and shove it up their arse.

 

[estebanrey]

Dross. Police forced people in to one section of the stand.

Sorry but I'm going to have to pick you up on your use of the word 'forced'. They didn't 'force' anyone anywhere, they allowed (stupidly) fans to enter through an open turnstille.

It's like a workman leaving a man hole uncovered then when someone falls down it you claiming the workman 'forced' the person to fall down it.

This was a case of gross negligence, not evil inspired coercion.

'We' ? Who do you support?

Why is that relevant? Trying to bring this down to partisan loyalties between football fans is far more horrible than anything I've said so far.

But for your info I don't support any of Liverpool's major rivals and not 'hate' Liverpool FC either.

 

[Diesel]

Sorry but I'm going to have to pick you up on your use of the word 'forced'. They didn't 'force' anyone anywhere, they allowed (stupidly) fans to enter through an open turnstille.

It's like a workman leaving a man hole uncovered then when someone falls down it you claiming the workman 'forced' the person to fall down it.

This was a case of gross negligence, not evil inspired coercion.

Can we stop with with this 'open turnstile'? They opened a large EXIT gate, designed to allow a lot of people OUT in the shortest possible time, this was directly responsible for the crush.

 

[estebanrey]

Can we stop with with this 'open turnstile'? They opened a large EXIT gate, designed to allow a lot of people OUT in the shortest possible time, this was directly responsible for the crush.

Correction accepted, the point remains the same though. No one was 'forced' to use it.

 

[inogen]

Correction accepted, the point remains the same though. No one was 'forced' to use it.

Like no-one was forced to go the game itself?

Failures in crowd control in the minutes before were directly causal to the crowd outside the entrances to the Leppings Lane end. The Police caused the overcrowding outside, then opened the exit gate to alleviate the problems they'd caused.

When the gate was open, fans were "forced" to use it as they didn't have much choice in the matter if they wanted to get inside the stadium. Indeed those that had decided they were better off out of it but were in the vicinity of the gate were forced to use it by the surge of people trying to use it.

Try reading some of the accounts of the survivors. http://www.contrast.org/hillsborough/history/survivors.shtm

 

[Purdy]

Correction accepted, the point remains the same though. No one was 'forced' to use it.

Police responsibility, not crowds, if it is opened for them to use they are to assume it is safe.

 

[drunkenmaster]

Like no-one was forced to go the game itself?

Failures in crowd control in the minutes before were directly causal to the crowd outside the entrances to the Leppings Lane end. The Police caused the overcrowding outside, then opened the exit gate to alleviate the problems they'd caused.

When the gate was open, fans were "forced" to use it as they didn't have much choice in the matter if they wanted to get inside the stadium. Indeed those that had decided they were better off out of it but were in the vicinity of the gate were forced to use it by the surge of people trying to use it.

Try reading some of the accounts of the survivors. http://www.contrast.org/hillsborough/history/survivors.shtm

Sorry but rubbish, they weren't forced to use these gates, they CHOSE to use them. I don't mind people blaming the police for their lack of forethought, for making horrendous mistakes afterwards and for failing to realise it was a bad idea to leave fans to think for themselves but.... given a vast crowd infront of me to get in somewhere. I personally choose NOT to shove everyone infront of me, I would realise its too full and go back, then wait my turn in the turnstiles, or even give up.

At some stage, and Liverpool fans seem absolutely incapable of admitting this at all, the fans at the back CHOSE to push the people infront so they could also get in. They had a choice, realise it was too full, or to keep going anyway.... they chose the later and anyone that can't see that is blind.

I've been in loads of stituations with massive crowds, patiently waiting at the back and even eventually having to be turned away. Onto massively packed tube stations where if everyone at the back simply pushed, hundreds of people would be pushed onto the tracks, the insanely tight and cramped corridoors at Highbury, near the front in concerts.

At some stage in ALL these situations people choose that pushing forwards is a poor option, a dangerous option and don't do it.


The liverpool fans were responsible for the crush, the police were responsible for allowing the possibility of it happening, and for the absolute failure to quickly respond in the best way to save as many lives as possible, but the crushing came from people shoving, nothing more or less, and not a single person on that day HAD to shove anyone.

I will happily take this back if the police actually pushed people away from the slow turnstyle cues and actively shoved them through the exit gate, afaik that didn't happen.