Thanks for your contribution Dr. Frasier Crane.
Hillsborough Disaster
- Thread starter cheets64
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Thanks for your contribution Dr. Frasier Crane.
Associate
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Yes, because seeing certain posters throw juvenile insults around here and suprisingly not elsewhere in topics of similar or greater gravity is psychological analysis.
At least we're beyond "**** you"s now.
At least we're beyond "**** you"s now.
Quoted for Truth.
Or heading very quickly towards more of them.
'Partly to blame due to using an entrance the police specified for them to use.'
Caporegime
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So this report counts but when the previous reports said the fans were to blame, that didn't count?
Have you ever heard of something being political, explain where the political upside is of blaming the fans? Will the government gain votes or look calous in the eyes of the media, if they do partially blame the fans... what do they gain from it?
IF the experts can explain how fans can be crushed when an entire crowd acts sensibly and stops moving forward when there is no space, I'll listen, while they can't sensible people will realise the report is meant as nothing more than to shut up Liverpool fans.
And most people who aren't Liverpool fans despair at the lack of ability to appreciate physics. Stand next to someone... are they crushed? now push them against something when you can see there isn't room for them? It is physically impossible that a bunch of people stood next to each other with no shoving and people got crushed, it is literally(with his being a meaningful usage of the word) IMPOSSIBLE.
Seriously, explain to me how it is possible for people to be crushed if no one pushes anyone into anyone else, if no one is touching anyone else, where did the crush come from. Dear god, ask 50 friends over, go into the smallest room, when its safely full with no one being crushed and not a single bit of space for someone else in there, explain how anyone in there gets crushed if everyone outside stops moving.
You're both arguing against physics and saying a report backs you up so must be true, despite Liverpool fans fighting reports and inquests for 23 years... either reports can be made to say anything they want... and the first one was... or they are all completely correct.
I tell you this time and time again, stop commenting on things that you have no ****ing idea about.
None of the previous reports blamed Liverpool fans. Get your facts right.
edit: In fact, all the reports have praised the actions of Liverpool supporters.
Caporegime
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Good for you, you consistently tell me that and I consistently don't give a crap about what you say, have a biscuit.
People can't be crushed without people pushing, until someone says the police were pushing fans into the stadium, its the fans who were pushing.
It is physically impossible for people to be crushed if no one was pushing, if it is, come up with a single way it is possible.
I'm not sure why drunkenmaster wasn't on the panel. Admittedly he has no idea what he's talking about (as usual) but he knows better than every single expert that's looked into the disaster.
Next time you get on a bus or a train DM, watch how as soon as it pulls up, the majority of people waiting to get on form a huddle around the door from every single angle - it's human instinct. Football supporters back in those days were packed into the stands like sardines at the best of times - the people at the back of the crowd didn't know that those at the front were getting crushed.
Next time you get on a bus or a train DM, watch how as soon as it pulls up, the majority of people waiting to get on form a huddle around the door from every single angle - it's human instinct. Football supporters back in those days were packed into the stands like sardines at the best of times - the people at the back of the crowd didn't know that those at the front were getting crushed.
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Caporegime
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So you can't explain how people standing apart from each other with plenty of room get crushed? There wasn't any pushing, yet people got crushed, and the fact that physics failed in the vicinity of the stadium that day doesn't have you worried.... okay.
"Some degree of error" does not imply they are the cause. Blimey.
The pushing and shoving is entirely irrelevant.
The pushing and shoving happened at every football match with terraces. this pushing and shoving did not, therefore directly cause the crush otherwise, people would have been crushed to death at 40 or 50 stadia every weekend up and down the UK every football season for the 70 odd preceding years.
The pushing and shoving happened at every football match with terraces. this pushing and shoving did not, therefore directly cause the crush otherwise, people would have been crushed to death at 40 or 50 stadia every weekend up and down the UK every football season for the 70 odd preceding years.
Cameron is a politician, not a judge or part of the legal system. What he will be thinking is that he can gain support from a chunk of working class Liverpool that were traditionally Labour voters by appeasing them over Hillsborough with virtually no negative side effects. The rest of the population have pretty much moved on unless they have an agenda to push, so they will not have their vote swayed either way by this. He stands to lose the vote of maybe a few individuals from the (probably ex) police/council/govermnent who are in part to blame and are bricking it right now because this is all being dragged up again.
Also if you believe every word a politician says then you clearly don't know a lot about politics. Unless they are talking about putting taxes up that is.
In fact, he has probably said all of that safe in the knowledge that he won't even have to do anything about it because he won't be in power in 2 years time when it eventually reaches the courts (if it reaches the courts at all that is). On the off chance that he does remain in power I'm sure he will backtrack or do some other political maneuvre like commission a new report that says that it is inconclusive.
Also if you believe every word a politician says then you clearly don't know a lot about politics. Unless they are talking about putting taxes up that is.
In fact, he has probably said all of that safe in the knowledge that he won't even have to do anything about it because he won't be in power in 2 years time when it eventually reaches the courts (if it reaches the courts at all that is). On the off chance that he does remain in power I'm sure he will backtrack or do some other political maneuvre like commission a new report that says that it is inconclusive.
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Did they?
I always read that the poorly designed and ageing turnstiles had a lot to do with causing a massive queue outside.... Can we also blame the owners of Hillsborough for shoddy maintenance and poor planning?
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/hillsborough-documents-released-brian-reade-1318730
Of course they have. Once the mayhem started, the fans saved a lot of lives.
What DM has said is true. You have two outcomes to this.
Fans fault: completely ignored by family of those who died, cover up, never hear the end of it etc etc
Polices fault: All over a done with, families get what they want. Liverpool fans stop going on about it.
You have to be very careful blaming the fans when people in the crowd died. The polices actions were not right for most of the day but as DM says, to crush people do death required a concerted effort by a large mass of people moving forwards.
I have been in plenty of places where everyone is being crushed but as soon as someone starts shouting or pushing back, you get a ripple effect that travels through the crowd and stops it. People are pretty good in general when it comes to things like this so why didn't anyone stop pushing?
Ok - every legal expert that's looked into the disaster has cleared Liverpool fans of any responsibility and praised the actions of the supporters.
What the last page predominately shows, along with people commenting without knowing what they are talking about/disagreeing with experts, is just how many people never attended a game that was all standing as opposed to all seater stadia that we have nowadays.
Blimey indeed.
"Some degree of error". So either fans actions directly or indirectly led to the deaths. Or were part of a causal chain?
But no-ones blaming the fans?
Make your mind up.