Hillsborough Disaster

[guyfawkes5]

I'm guessing you were a regular supporter standing on terraces back then Robbo? How could somebody with 1000's of people in front of them and being used to being packed into pens so tightly that they couldn't move, know the pen they were trying to get into was full? Was the pen blocked off? Were police/stewards there to tell them it was full? Were they directed to the outer pens?

I've been in many terraces, and I think the discussion is about whether or not terrace supporters generally default to pushing when confronted with a stationary crowd in front of them and are ignorant of the reason why.

 

[estebanrey]

I'm guessing you were a regular supporter standing on terraces back then Robbo? How could somebody with 1000's of people in front of them and being used to being packed into pens so tightly that they couldn't move, know the pen they were trying to get into was full? Was the pen blocked off? Were police/stewards there to tell them it was full? Were they directed to the outer pens?

Because at some point they wouldn't be able to move forwards without pushing as a collective. That doesn't mean they deliberately linked arms, took a run up and shoved the crowd in front but if someone stops moving in front you, you stop as well. If that happens no one can get crushed, people can only get crushed if the crowd is constantly pushing themselves forward, ignoring the people in front of them stopping due to the congestion in front of them.

Think of a traffic jam, you don't go bumper to bumper with the car in front and try and force that car to a further position than it currently sits on. You stop a few metres behind and wait until they move forward and then and only then do you move forward as well.

You cannot get around the fact that at some point a large body of people at the back must have been forcing their way forward to crush the people at the front. If everyone in a queue stops and doesn't move beyond the heels of the person in front no crushing can occur.

 

[fez]

I've been in many terraces, and I think the discussion is about whether or not terrace supporters generally default to pushing when confronted with a stationary crowd in front of them and are ignorant of the reason why.

I think that is what we are all getting at. There are events held every year in this country that pack thousands and thousands into spaces that would be prone to crushing and lets be honest, you could have 100 police at a large music venue that would be powerless to stop people at the front being crushed if the people behind them keep pushing.

I don't think we expected everyone to just turn round and march out once there was too much pressure in the crowd but distress carries. People would have started to scream and that would have rippled through the crowd very quickly.

 

[drunkenmaster]

I'm guessing you were a regular supporter standing on terraces back then Robbo? How could somebody with 1000's of people in front of them and being used to being packed into pens so tightly that they couldn't move, know the pen they were trying to get into was full? Was the pen blocked off? Were police/stewards there to tell them it was full? Were they directed to the outer pens?

Quite simply because you can, when it takes a great effort to shove the people infront, its OBVIOUS that there isn't enough room.

I've been in terraces loads, I don't think I've once ended up standing where I first stood, as the crowds come in everyone moves further in, I've been at the back, front middle. Its VERY obvious when an area is full, its VERY obvious when there is loads of space left, when you have to very forcefully shove the people infront of you..... there is no space... it really is that simple.


LIke I said, people packed in like sardines in thousands of terraces for decades with barely a problem, yet this one time fans were incapable of seeing when an area was full, and just ploughed on in anyway?

Think about how tightly packed people were to be crushed, then consider exactly how much force the people at the back had to be using to make more space and push them even tighter, this isn't a small amount of force, and yes, common sense absolutely dictates when there is space and when there isn't.

No one has said they did it on purpose, no one said they intended to harm anyone, but when people get stupid and ignore common sense people get hurt.


You've been to non terraced games, can you not tell when you come out of the tunnel how busy an area is? When you come down the stairs to a platform can you not see how busy it is, do you judge a platform to be so busy you stand still and wait, or not that busy and you can dodge and weave your way further down? Is this not really quite easy, yeah, every terraced game I've ever been to its easy to tell when its packed. At any one of these times, any single one, you or I could simply push as hard as we can and push people forward.... I choose not to, you do, most people do.

 

[Tummy]

Sorry but I'm going to have to pick you up on your use of the word 'forced'. They didn't 'force' anyone anywhere, they allowed (stupidly) fans to enter through an open turnstille.

It's like a workman leaving a man hole uncovered then when someone falls down it you claiming the workman 'forced' the person to fall down it.

This was a case of gross negligence, not evil inspired coercion.

Dross.

Why is that relevant? Trying to bring this down to partisan loyalties between football fans is far more horrible than anything I've said so far.

But for your info I don't support any of Liverpool's major rivals and not 'hate' Liverpool FC either.

I didn't start the tribal nature of football.

There have been plenty of football stadium disasters but we don't bang on about them on an annual basis like we do with Hillsbrough.

 

[inogen]

Anyone banging on about pushing and shoving being the cause of the crush hasn't read ANY of the accounts of those entering the central pens.

Those even in the middle of the pens at kick off were uncomfortable but were only just becoming aware of the crush at the front. Those entering though the tunnel had no idea at all.

There wasn't much screaming and shouting going on. You don't tend to scream and shout particularly loudly when you're being crushed to death and you're struggling for breath.

 

[estebanrey]

Dross.

Then please show me evidence that the police 'forced' (rather than simply 'allowed') people to enter an already overcrowded area? Show me evidence where fans were being frogged marched against their will to go certain routes.

Even the report blames the police for allowing it to happen, at no point does it say police 'forced' fans to crush each other.

I didn't start the tribal nature of football.

No but you tried to capitalise on it by dragging my argument into a tribal football loyalty territory in the hope it would belittle what I was saying. Who I support is irrelevant to this discussion or my views on Hillsbrough.

 

[BaZ87]

I think we are all struggling with the idea that no one coming into the pens knew that it was too full yet somewhere people we being crushed. Where did this pressure come from if not the back of the pen where the new fans were coming in?

In a number of posts you have said that the people coming in didn't know that it was too full; well how did people at the front get crushed if there was no pressure being put on the pens from the back (the new fans coming in).

I'm not sure why you're struggling. It's fairly simple. The pens was full or close to being full when a couple of thousand supporters entered the tunnel into the 2 central pens. Initially everybody gradually moves forward as much as they can - the first ones to run out of room in front of them are those at the front of the pens. It's fairly difficult to transfer a message between over 10,000 supporters from the very front of the pen (where supporters are beginning to get crushed) to those entering tunnel.

 

[Tummy]

It's not a tribal thing, it's nothing like that. This was a disaster that had a huge impact on football in this country. It has since had a lasting effect on how football games (and other events) are policed.

I'm just gob smacked that people still can't grasp that this wasn't the fault of the fans and it was due to a spectacular failure of the local authorities. I had friends and family in the crush, I've listened to first hand accounts, I had friends and family not in the crush but in the ground and listened to the accounts. It's a horrifying event that should never have been allowed to happen if the authorities that day were doing their job properly.

96 innocent people lost their lives. This rubbish about 'not forcing' people in to the ground, well yes they did, they forced the fans in to a particular pen that was already over crowded. They opened one of the exits to get people in quicker.

People's problem is that they've been presented with a piece of propaganda that's become a false truth and now the truth (that many of us knew all along) is 'officially' out some sections are having difficulty adjusting to the idea they have been lied to.

 

[guyfawkes5]

Those entering though the tunnel had no idea at all.

And they..?

Unsurprisingly I think you're missing the point again.

 

[grimm]

Most of us in this thread are simply asking questions and trying to establish what are the facts and and what is "made up". Then there are the pieces of the puzzle in between that nobody will know for sure, even the people that were there, because they could not have been omnipresent in that stadium. Nobody has claimed anything as fact.

There are basic deductions which have been made such as how the crush happened which cannot be disputed really, it's simple physics. Whether people were pushing from the back with or without knowledge of what was happening at the front does not make them any less responsible for their actions, it just means that they didn't know the harm they were causing until it was far far too late. All it does is take away the intent.

The same can be said from a police point of view. I'm sure that there was no intent from the police to cause any deaths that day, but obviously mistakes were made, and we can make basic deductions about what the police did or didn't do on the day that led to the tragedy. None of them were stood behind the crowds with a cattle prod forcing them inside though, which is how some people seem to be reacting.

The aftermath/coverup is a completely different issue in my opinion. Obviously some people at the top decided upon this and they should be punished appropriately.

It was an almighty mess caused by a number of factors, including the fans, the police, the people in charge of the police who were probably just giving orders via radio, the people in charge of the ambulances, the council, the stadium management, the football culture at the time... the list could go on.

 

[drunkenmaster]

Anyone banging on about pushing and shoving being the cause of the crush hasn't read ANY of the accounts of those entering the central pens.

Those even in the middle of the pens at kick off were uncomfortable but were only just becoming aware of the crush at the front. Those entering though the tunnel had no idea at all.

There wasn't much screaming and shouting going on. You don't tend to scream and shout particularly loudly when you're being crushed to death and you're struggling for breath.

None of what you said is relevant, just so you know. Its only relevant in if those people at the back did it on purpose or not, no one said they did.

You don't need to know for a fact people are getting crushed at the front to decide not to push in at the back. You don't even need to know if people are in trouble at the front to know pushing in at the back is a bad idea.

Do you have to know someone is about to fall off the platform onto the tracks to know not to start pushing hard into a crowd infront of you? No, you don't, its simply a bad idea to push in that situation if its that crowded.

 

[drunkenmaster]

I'm not sure why you're struggling. It's fairly simple. The pens was full or close to being full when a couple of thousand supporters entered the tunnel into the 2 central pens. Initially everybody gradually moves forward as much as they can - the first ones to run out of room in front of them are those at the front of the pens. It's fairly difficult to transfer a message between over 10,000 supporters from the very front of the pen (where supporters are beginning to get crushed) to those entering tunnel.

Yes, this is how a queue works, people move forward then they are faced by a crowd, its either easily moveable... there is space.... its very hard to move... there is no space. Simple indicators time tested, worked everywhere else for millions of people, still works today..... yet people still piled in.

You move forward till there is no space, then there are two options, stop, go back or just shove forwards harder.

 

[BaZ87]

Most of us in this thread are simply asking questions and trying to establish what are the facts and and what is "made up".

Maybe you should read all the findings of all the reports and inquests rather than post rubbish.

 

[Tummy]

Then please show me evidence that the police 'forced' (rather than simply 'allowed') people to enter an already overcrowded area? Show me evidence where fans were being frogged marched against their will to go certain routes.

Even the report blames the police for allowing it to happen, at no point does it say police 'forced' fans to crush each other.

Know many people that were at Hillsborough that day did you? Read many accounts of what happened that day?

Yes, those Liverpool fans were forced in to the crush. Don't start to mock or make light of the use of the word force, you can be forced in to doing something without physically being frog marched.

No but you tried to capitalise on it by dragging my argument into a tribal football loyalty territory in the hope it would belittle what I was saying. Who I support is irrelevant to this discussion or my views on Hillsbrough.

If it's not a problem why did you make the initial comment?

There have been plenty of football stadium disasters but we don't bang on about them on an annual basis like we do with Hillsbrough.

Still amazed, who is this 'we' that don't bang on about Hillsborough? Who is the 'we' that do bang on about Hillsborough?

96 innocent people lost their lives, through failings of the local authorities, who turned the blame on to those innocent people. I think any football club, or any fan of football would and should be out raged by that. I don't think that's quite the same as 'banging on about' it, it's seeking the truth and justice.

 

[inogen]

None of what you said is relevant, just so you know. Its only relevant in if those people at the back did it on purpose or not, no one said they did.

You don't need to know for a fact people are getting crushed at the front to decide not to push in at the back. You don't even need to know if people are in trouble at the front to know pushing in at the back is a bad idea.

Do you have to know someone is about to fall off the platform onto the tracks to know not to start pushing hard into a crowd infront of you? No, you don't, its simply a bad idea to push in that situation if its that crowded.

But people weren't pushing at the back. if you were at the back of the pens, you could move around unobstructed from one pen to another even whilst people were being crushed at the front.

8,000 people in pens that only had a safety certificate for 1,200 doesn't require pushing from the back for people to be crushed. Nor does it require people to push their way in from the back to get that full.

 

[strocky]

Crowd management in 1989 wasn't the same as today because the nature of the crowds weren't the same.

Back then they were 99.9% adult male, tanked up on booze and looking to let off steam by shouting obscenities and occasionally having the odd fight.

Your stat is absolute rubbish

22 of the victims that perished where under the age of 18 and 2 sisters also tragically passed away

Logout or stop posting on this thread, you're embarrassing yourself

 

[fez]

But people weren't pushing at the back. if you were at the back of the pens, you could move around unobstructed from one pen to another even whilst people were being crushed at the front.

8,000 people in pens that only had a safety certificate for 1,200 doesn't require pushing from the back for people to be crushed. Nor does it require people to push their way in from the back to get that full.

This is the bit that I am struggling to comprehend. If there was space at the back of the pens and the pressure wasn't coming from the back, where was it coming from. At some point in that crowd you must have had people trying to drive forwards which created that pressure. Simply having too many people in a room will not crush anyone, you have to have a constant force compressing them to crush people.

We are not trying to bait the Liverpool supporters, we are just all rather confused as to the holes in the official story that has just come out.

 

[grimm]

Maybe you should read all the findings of all the reports and inquests rather than post rubbish.

I'v read everything I possibly could over the years...

The difference is that I'm not biased.

 

[drunkenmaster]

But people weren't pushing at the back. if you were at the back of the pens, you could move around unobstructed from one pen to another even whilst people were being crushed at the front.

8,000 people in pens that only had a safety certificate for 1,200 doesn't require pushing from the back for people to be crushed. Nor does it require people to push their way in from the back to get that full.

This is so painfully daft I don't know how to make this easy to comprehend.

People get crushed, it is impossible for one to crush oneself... the only way be crushed is if someone is compressing your body, this requires someone else pushing you, there is literally no alternative, you are so far the other side of wrong I don't know what to call you.

8,000 people will only fit in a pen that big, if they push their way in, and yes it does require people to push their way in to get that full. If there was room at the back is largely irrelevant. As said before you can have people crushed in a half empty arena if a bunch of people push into those infront of them. It doesn't matter if the crowd is two deep and the second line pushes into the front line, or if its 50 deep and the 50th line, or the 40th through 50th lines push into the ones infront, or if the area is completely full and its those at the back pushing in.

Lastly, and maybe just answer this, how does someone get crushed with no external forces acting on their body? Because without pushing, this is what you are suggesting... no really.