Hillsborough Disaster

This is the bit that I am struggling to comprehend. If there was space at the back of the pens and the pressure wasn't coming from the back, where was it coming from. At some point in that crowd you must have had people trying to drive forwards which created that pressure. Simply having too many people in a room will not crush anyone, you have to have a constant force compressing them to crush people.

We are not trying to bait the Liverpool supporters, we are just all rather confused as to the holes in the official story that has just come out.

THe bolded bit, it can if, say a room can hold 500 people at absolute max capacity and one more person will cause someone to be crushed, then if a 501st person pushes into that room it will basically require a constant force for him to even stay in the room. Basically too many people in any area = constant force. Think of two people hugging really tight, you put effort into simply pulling someone into you(and not even crushing force) as soon as you stop pulling you move apart.

However as in previous posts, a room doesn't have to be full for people to be pushing in. Put 10 people in a room that can hold 20, then have 5 people come in and shove them all to one side, or you could have 15 people squeeze in, the original 10 would still be squashed into one side either way.
 
People are getting confused between max capacity and max safe capacity.

Those pens were physically capable of holding far more 1000s of people than they could hold safely.

You didn't have to push to get into them.
 
THe bolded bit, it can if, say a room can hold 500 people at absolute max capacity and one more person will cause someone to be crushed, then if a 501st person pushes into that room it will basically require a constant force for him to even stay in the room. Basically too many people in any area = constant force. Think of two people hugging really tight, you put effort into simply pulling someone into you(and not even crushing force) as soon as you stop pulling you move apart.

However as in previous posts, a room doesn't have to be full for people to be pushing in. Put 10 people in a room that can hold 20, then have 5 people come in and shove them all to one side, or you could have 15 people squeeze in, the original 10 would still be squashed into one side either way.

Thats not quite true unless you are talking "packed like sardines". Until you hit that critical number whereby no-one can even wiggle, you can get more people in an area without causing a single spot of pressure, it would average out over the whole of the crowd.

I am just really trying to get some sense out of the Liverpool fans that as (almost) always, seem incapable of being unbiased when it comes to their club.

Even with twice as many people in an area as you should have, the pressure would be evenly distributed, there wouldn't magically appear a line of pressure at the front unless the people behind them were pushing in that direction.

The surplus fans got in just before kick off and would have been trying to get a view of the game. That seems to me to be the likely reason that there was a crush. As you say, you don't always have to have pressure from the very back to create a crush but you have to have some people, somewhere trying to push forwards with some force.
 
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People are getting confused between max capacity and max safe capacity.

Those pens were physically capable of holding far more 1000s of people than they could hold safely.

You didn't have to push to get into them.
There's confusion alright.

Did any pushing occur at all in your mind, or did the stand spontaneously contract around them?
 
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For those that couldn't be bothered to "gen up" or engage their brains prior to posting in this thread...

Here is "The Report of the Hillsborough Independent Panel" : http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/report/HIP_report.pdf

Page 37 "The Circumstances" onwards should enlighten you as to what the causes actually were, but a read of all of it is of course very much recommended.

Edit : Additional reading : http://www.epltalk.com/steven-cohen-blames-liverpool-fans-for-hillsborough-disaster-5915
 
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There's confusion alright.

Did any pushing occur at all in your mind, or did the stand detect there was more people than procedure allowed and spontaneously contract around them?

Read the accounts of the people that were in the pens from 2:30 onwards. There's no mention of if being difficult to enter the pens. Only that once you were in, you were in and indeed, the space around them appeared to spontaneously contract. One moment you could move your arms, the next you couldn't. The pressure was unusually coming from the front, not the back whilst there was no room to move backwards as 1000s of people were still entering overcrowded pens unhindered instead of being ushered to the empty side pens.
 
Think about how tightly packed people were to be crushed, then consider exactly how much force the people at the back had to be using to make more space and push them even tighter, this isn't a small amount of force, and yes, common sense absolutely dictates when there is space and when there isn't.

I'm not guru, but thats not how my understanding of physics works. 100 people giving you a gentle push = a 100 x powerful push. It therefore begs to reason, that nobody needs to be pushing particularly hard for it to become very uncomfortable and to induce panic.

Given that the documents have stated they were packed in by an unprecedented amount, you can't really compare it to your regular occurance on a terrace either.

I'm not gonna go as far as to suggest there wasn't a single bad egg in the crowd, but its the police and organizers job to mitigate those types of people with safety regulations. They're well aware of the problems, and everyone is well aware they've made some glaring mistakes, which would have easily led to a similar outcome with any team.
 
Your stat is absolute rubbish

22 of the victims that perished where under the age of 18 and 2 sisters also tragically passed away

Logout or stop posting on this thread, you're embarrassing yourself

99% <> All.

Are you disputing that football nowadays is much more family orientated than it was back then? Are you disputing that back in the 80s football was for the most-part an almost entirely male and adult activity?

As I said earlier, I wanted to go to football as a kid in the 80s and my parents flat out refused to take me because they didn't think it was a place for kids. Look at it now where you regular see toddlers and primary school kids at games.

It's completely different nowadays.
 
For those that couldn't be bothered to "gen up" or engage their brains prior to posting in this thread...

Here is "The Report of the Hillsborough Independent Panel" : http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/report/HIP_report.pdf

Page 37 "The Circumstances" onwards should enlighten you as to what the causes actually were, but a read of all of it is of course very much recommended.

That section completely ignores the actual crush though. It says

People were let in to an already crowded pen and crushing occurred. It doesn't say how the crushing was started, who did it (assuming that the people at the back saying it wasn't packed at the back are correct).

How can you apportion no blame at all to the fans when it was the crushing they caused that killed people. The police should have stopped this happening before it ever got to that stage but I can't see past the fans who created the crush if we are looking at blame. Both sides made a mistake and yet it seems that it is only the police that have anything to answer to.
 
Read the accounts of the people that were in the pens from 2:30 onwards. There's no mention of if being difficult to enter the pens. Only that once you were in, you were in and indeed, the space around them appeared to spontaneously contract. One moment you could move your arms, the next you couldn't. The pressure was unusually coming from the front, not the back whilst there was no room to move backwards as 1000s of people were still entering overcrowded pens unhindered instead of being ushered to the empty side pens.

You do realise none of that makes any logical sense and can't possibly be true right?

If the pressure was coming from the front, its because they had already been pushed forwards and were trying to push back to make room. IE< they had already been pushed at that point. Secondly, if you try to move back, but can't and THOUSANDS of people were still coming in.... that is completely illogical. So there is space, thousands of people are coming in yet no one could move backwards at all? This indicates they were being prevented from moving backwards. I don't know about you but if I push backwards and go nowhere, its because someone is pushing in the opposite direction.

Thirdly, you just said people were pushing........ sorry, pressure.. because normally when everyone stands still and no one pushes, pressure appears out of thin air(okay, it actually does, but not the level of pressure we are talking about).

It's a crowd there are too many people, people push forwards, people at the front start to get crushed, they try to push backwards, people at the back try to move backwards but can't, because people are still pushing their way into the area.

You've already said there WAS pushing, while denying it was even possible the whole time. The statements make no sense as everything claimed is also, impossible. There was no room to go backwards, but room for thousands of people to come in... these are completely contradictory unless for instance the 50th line was the "back" line, the 49th line was, being pushed backwards, the 49th line was trying to push backwards into all this space behind the 50th line... but they couldn't move. The only possibility is the 50th line is pushing forwards.

You can't crush someone without an external force, this is literally impossible, you don't have to have everyone pushing the entire time to create a problem.

If rows 1 through 10 come in normally, rows 10-20 come in, randomly push the front 10 rows massively forwards, and then rows 20 through 100 come in normally as there is plenty of space. There was still pushing, it was the rows 10-20, it could have happened very early, and people behind might not of known, its still the people in rows 10-20 at fault, someone still pushed.

I don't know who did the pushing, I don't know when, I know logic dictates the only possibility is some people were being pushed, the number of people in distress, the number of people trying to get in, the number of people died generally leads me to believe it was people at the back pushing in, but that doesn't have to be the case.

1 person could have been in, 10 people could have come in, rammed him against the fence, and the entire rest filled up normally, the only thing in common with every scenario is a group of fans, at some staged, pushed a bunch of other fans, on purpose, no, out of ignorance, lack of common sense and no care for safety, yes.

Lastly, do you really think a bunch of fans, when interview would after seeing a horrific tragedy go "oh, yeah, I shoved a bunch of people to make room, I really regret that".... really? The police can lie but not a single fan could have, mostly people don't realise what the consequences of their actions had been. You shove ten people to make room for your mate, and you don't realise it set off a chain of events that killed people.

Most people aren't stupid enough, most people at thousands of other games Liverpool fans went to didn't crush people, most of the fans that day did entirely nothing wrong, some almost certainly did, I would expect almost no one in that situation to come out and say they were pushing at the back, absolutely no one.
 
For those that couldn't be bothered to "gen up" or engage their brains prior to posting in this thread...

Here is "The Report of the Hillsborough Independent Panel" : http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/report/HIP_report.pdf

Page 37 "The Circumstances" onwards should enlighten you as to what the causes actually were, but a read of all of it is of course very much recommended.

Edit : Additional reading : http://www.epltalk.com/steven-cohen-blames-liverpool-fans-for-hillsborough-disaster-5915

This report is full of inconsistencies.

"1.78 As kick-off time approached, the crush worsened, and men, women, children and police officers struggled to breathe. Mounted police officers were trapped in the crowd. In later testimonies police officers stated that the crowd grew ‘unruly’, ‘nasty’ and ‘violent’, but people caught in the crush gave a contrasting account. They felt there had been no attempt to manage the crowd, no filtering and no queuing."

The crowd being ‘unruly’, ‘nasty’ and ‘violent’ and the crowd being mismanaged are not mutually exclusive. It's quite plausible that both were happening at the same time.
 
There wasn't pushing.

Think of it like this... 1 room, with a window. The room has a safe capacity of 20 people. Physically, it could hold 50. But 50 people in there and people who are at the front by the window then can't get out if they need to use the toilet, get a drink etc.

The first 20 people enter the room. They all want to get a spec to see out of the window so most of the room is empty as all 20 people crowd around the window.

At this point, the room is "full".

But another 10 people come in. They didn't have to push in, they just walked in. Everyone's like, "ok, this is a bit inconvenient, but we'll get on with it." - bit cramped but nothing dangerous. This 10 join the previous 20 crowding around the window.

Then some more people come in... quite quickly people are getting a bit ****ed off that they can't get out from around the window, never mind leave the room.

But then more people come in. There's 50 people in the room now. Physically they fit, but it's a very tight squeeze. There's now an extra couple of people come into the room and people are getting crushed by the window, but there's another 50 outside stopping anyone from leaving the room.

At no point has anyone pushed themselves into the room. They just walked into space which was required in order so that people could leave the room. That's how people are crushed. That's why terraces had crush barriers to protect those at the front and why the safe capacity was far less than you could actually physically fit into a pen.
 
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There wasn't pushing.

Think of it like this... 1 room, with a window. The room has a safe capacity of 20 people. Physically, it could hold 50. But 50 people in there and people who are at the front by the window then can't get out if they need to use the toilet, get a drink etc.

The first 20 people enter the room. They all want to get a spec to see out of the window so most of the room is empty as all 20 people crowd around the window.

At this point, the room is "full".

But another 10 people come in. They didn't have to push in, they just walked in. Everyone's like, "ok, this is a bit inconvenient, but we'll get on with it." - bit cramped but nothing dangerous. This 10 join the previous 20 crowding around the window.

Then some more people come in... quite quickly people are getting a bit ****ed off that they can't get out from around the window, never mind leave the room.

But then more people come in. There's 50 people in the room now. Physically they fit, but it's a very tight squeeze. There's now an extra couple of people come into the room and people are getting crushed by the window, but there's another 50 outside stopping anyone from leaving the room.

At no point has anyone pushed themselves into the room. They just walked into space which was required in order so that people could leave the room. That's how people are crushed.

Just because the pushing happened inside the stands and not the entrance, doesn't mean that there wasn't any pushing...
 
There wasn't pushing.

Think of it like this... 1 room, with a window. The room has a safe capacity of 20 people. Physically, it could hold 50. But 50 people in there and people who are at the front by the window then can't get out if they need to use the toilet, get a drink etc.

The first 20 people enter the room. They all want to get a spec to see out of the window so most of the room is empty as all 20 people crowd around the window.

At this point, the room is "full".

But another 10 people come in. They didn't have to push in, they just walked in. Everyone's like, "ok, this is a bit inconvenient, but we'll get on with it." - bit cramped but nothing dangerous. This 10 join the previous 20 crowding around the window.

Then some more people come in... quite quickly people are getting a bit ****ed off that they can't get out from around the window, never mind leave the room.

But then more people come in. There's 50 people in the room now. Physically they fit, but it's a very tight squeeze. There's now an extra couple of people come into the room and people are getting crushed by the window, but there's another 50 outside stopping anyone from leaving the room.

At no point has anyone pushed themselves into the room. They just walked into space which was required in order so that people could leave the room. That's how people are crushed.

I don't know how you are struggling to grasp the idea that you cannot force more people into an area than there is room for unless you push.

In your example above, the people crowding round the window would be fine unless you are forcing too many people into the room from the back or at some point in the room, people are pushing forwards. The only way that people can walk into a room that is full to capacity is when they push their way in or other people are compressing another area of the room and space at the back opens up as a result.
 
Think of it like this...

No think of it like this. You are in a traffic jam, do you

a) Park up behind the vehicle in front with a few feet gap between you, have a little moan but ultimately accept you can't move forward safely even though you want to.

or

b) Push your way forward, using your bumper to try and physically push the car in front of you forward.
 
I don't know how you are struggling to grasp the idea that you cannot force more people into an area than there is room for unless you push.

In your example above, the people crowding round the window would be fine unless you are forcing too many people into the room from the back or at some point in the room, people are pushing forwards. The only way that people can walk into a room that is full to capacity is when they push their way in or other people are compressing another area of the room and space at the back opens up as a result.

Nobody is pushing anyone else, they're just walking into empty space.

There were 4000 people in each of those pens. They physically fitted, albeit with some crushing at the front and space to the rear.

Those pens were only deemed safe to hold 1200. Crushing at the front starts well before the pens are so physically full you have to push to get in.
 
No think of it like this. You are in a traffic jam, do you

a) Park up behind the vehicle in front with a few feet gap between you, have a little moan but ultimately accept you can't move forward safely even though you want to.

or

b) Push your way forward, using your bumper to try and physically push the car in front of you forward.

I don't think thats a particularly good analogy but you cannot have people being crushed to death without a sizeable group of people pushing from behind the people at the front. I have no idea how anyone can contest that.
 
I don't think thats a particularly good analogy but you cannot have people being crushed to death without a sizeable group of people pushing from behind the people at the front. I have no idea how anyone can contest that.

You have no idea because you don't have a clue about how the crush was caused.
 
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