Hillsborough Disaster

inogen said:
You have no idea because you don't have a clue about how the crush was caused.
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I have read all the material and I am fairly sure it was fans pushing. I don't particularly buy into your version that says that it "just happened" with no one pushing anyone. Use a little common sense eh.
 
fez said:
I don't think thats a particularly good analogy but you cannot have people being crushed to death without a sizeable group of people pushing from behind the people at the front. I have no idea how anyone can contest that.
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The point I'm trying to make is if you don't ever move forward past a small gap between you and the person in front you can't physically have any crush.

When we're in our cars we seems to realise this and accept that using our bumpers to try and force jams forward would damage our cars and be a dangerous activity so why don't we also apply the same logic to human queues?
 
estebanrey said:
The point I'm trying to make is if you don't ever move forward past a small gap between you and the person in front you can't physically have any crush.

When we're in our cars we seems to realise this and accept that using our bumpers to try and force jams forward would damage our cars and be a dangerous activity so why don't we also apply the same logic to human queues?
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Using the car analogy though, if you suddenly have 3 cars that decide to push the car in front of them, you will eventually feel the squeeze at the front. It can be a domino effect with crowds compacting but there is always a starting point for it.
 
fez said:
I have read all the material and I am fairly sure it was fans pushing. I don't particularly buy into your version that says that it "just happened" with no one pushing anyone. Use a little common sense eh.
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Show me one piece of material which says that the crush was caused by fans pushing.

My version isn't my version. It's the version given by people that went through it, corroborated by eyewitnesses who watched it and experts who have analysed how the crush came about.

Not one of these experts by the way has ever said, "I'm fairly sure it was caused by some pushing at the back". You're not joining the ranks of the enlightened and educated on the subject by espousing such a conclusion.
 
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inogen said:
Nobody is pushing anyone else, they're just walking into empty space.

There were 4000 people in each of those pens. They physically fitted, albeit with some crushing at the front and space to the rear.

Those pens were only deemed safe to hold 1200. Crushing at the front starts well before the pens are so physically full you have to push to get in.
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of course people were pushing, i don't see how anyone could think this didn't happen. a small minority of fans turn up late, probably been in the pub, realise the game has kicked off, they get restless, they push, they shout people to get a move on and a domino effect occurs. people who have realised that the crowd is going nowhere or there is no room would try and turn around to get back out and voila, people get asphyxiated.

reading today's telegraph, a disaster similar to this was narrowly avoided a few years before at hillsborough at a spurs v (i think) wimbeldon game. a report was carried out and suggestions made on what to do but the changes were not carried out due to cost.

the worst thing about this is the cover up from the police but to say the fans were not, even if in a small way, slightly to blame is a little ridiculous. what happened was awful, i remember when it happened very well but though the bulk of the blame lies with the authorities, the fans cannot be completely blameless, only a small minority but still.

the biggest culprit is the authorities, all the way from planning, to the people who told officers and medics to change their statements. i would like to think those responsible will do time but i doubt it.
 
grimm said:
Just because the pushing happened inside the stands and not the entrance, doesn't mean that there wasn't any pushing...
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Of course there would be "pushing" like every other terraced football match ever held. Crowds surge towards the front during the match or at times like kick off. Which is why pens were only supposed to hold many 1000s of people less than they could physically hold, so people could move around and return back to whence they came.

That can't happen if the pen is physically full, and it can become physically full without people needing to push to get into it.
 
cm1179 said:
of course people were pushing, i don't see how anyone could think this didn't happen. a small minority of fans turn up late, probably been in the pub, realise the game has kicked off, they get restless, they push, they shout people to get a move on and a domino effect occurs. people who have realised that the crowd is going nowhere or there is no room would try and turn around to get back out and voila, people get asphyxiated.
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This is nonsense. The overcrowding at the turnstiles was physically disconnected from the crush at the front of the pens.

Also - there were many more reasons why people were late, rather than having one more in the pub. The police were aware of serious traffic jams caused by roadworks en route but didn't delay Kick Off.

But carry on blaming drunken fans eh? Why not.
 
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inogen said:
There wasn't pushing.

Think of it like this... 1 room, with a window. The room has a safe capacity of 20 people. Physically, it could hold 50. But 50 people in there and people who are at the front by the window then can't get out if they need to use the toilet, get a drink etc.

The first 20 people enter the room. They all want to get a spec to see out of the window so most of the room is empty as all 20 people crowd around the window.

At this point, the room is "full".

But another 10 people come in. They didn't have to push in, they just walked in. Everyone's like, "ok, this is a bit inconvenient, but we'll get on with it." - bit cramped but nothing dangerous. This 10 join the previous 20 crowding around the window.

Then some more people come in... quite quickly people are getting a bit ****ed off that they can't get out from around the window, never mind leave the room.

But then more people come in. There's 50 people in the room now. Physically they fit, but it's a very tight squeeze. There's now an extra couple of people come into the room and people are getting crushed by the window, but there's another 50 outside stopping anyone from leaving the room.

At no point has anyone pushed themselves into the room. They just walked into space which was required in order so that people could leave the room. That's how people are crushed. That's why terraces had crush barriers to protect those at the front and why the safe capacity was far less than you could actually physically fit into a pen.
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You're quite painful to read at this point.

I've bolded the conclusion you've reached from absolutely nowhere. Sticking to your analogy, if no-one in the room pushed or carried out any sort of physical act towards each other during their entry of the room, how would their physical bodies be crushed? Their options to move to a new area might be limited because other people are occupying that space, but if no-one is physically effecting them how are they harmed? What force is being applied to them?

And to use your poorly-choosen traffic jam analogy, if cars at the front of the queue were physically crushed, in the absence of a gravity well spontaneously forming at the traffic lights, what can we assume the behaviour of surrounding cars was towards them?
 
guyfawkes5 said:
You're quite painful to read at this point.
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wow. i missed that. inogen, i understand your loyalty and allegiance but you cannot, not for more than a minute of thinking it over, seriously conclude that there was no pushing. it's human nature, excitement, they want to get in, the games started, they're missing it. of course people pushed.
 
Please excuse my ignorance on this delicate matter but has it now been declared that the unfortunate deaths were in no way due to the actions of other fans at the ground and were entirely the fault of the police/FA/whoever or has it been declared that the people who lost their lives were not at fault?
I'm hoping it can't be the latter as that was obvious to anyone who watched it live.
 
It seems that it would have been easier to say that a police batton charge was the cause. At least then some of you would have actually bothered to look into it yourselves, instead of berating / trolling others regarding what they know.

In looking back now, I can't help but think that team allegiances may have been a contributing factor in regards to some of the responses in this thread, which in this thread (of all threads) is one hell of a shame.

Well done.
 
JohnnyG said:
Please excuse my ignorance on this delicate matter but has it now been declared that the unfortunate deaths were in no way due to the actions of other fans at the ground and were entirely the fault of the police/FA/whoever or has it been declared that the people who lost their lives were not at fault?
I'm hoping it can't be the latter as that was obvious to anyone who watched it live.
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It has been officially declared that it was entirely down to the authorities and not the fans, yes.
 
Wow, some people still appear to be 'clinging' on to what they want to believe. Some of you need to understand that the Liverpool fans that day have now been cleared of any blame. However, some of you appear to not want to believe this. It is astonishing what prejudice can do to the mind.
 
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