Hillsborough Disaster

[BaZ87]

I am finding this all very difficult to understand. Everything in the first enquiry was a lie and everything in the new one is the god honest truth 100%.

Reading your post I find it easy to believe that you're finding this difficult to understand.

Lord Justice Taylor carried out the initial report and like this report, found the police and authorities responsible for the disaster and cleared Liverpool supporters. For some reason Lord Justice Taylor was not given access to all relevant documents though - documents relating to the cover-up, medical evidence and much more.

This latest report was given access to all documents and like the previous report, the blame for the disaster lies with the police and relevant authorities and again clears Liverpool supporters. It also proves once and for all that it was the police that leaked lies to the press in an attempt to smear Liverpool supporters and divert the blame from themselves, shows how they altered statements and the medical reports show that (despite what was earlier decided), many of the 96 that died could have survived beyond the 3.15pm cut-off time had the police allowed ambulances onto the pitch.

It's not a case of 1 report is right and 1 is wrong. The first report gave its findings based on the evidence it was shown, this report backs up much of which was found in the earlier report but also goes on to prove much more because it had access to much more evidence.

 

[fez]

Reading your post I find it easy to believe that you're finding this difficult to understand.

Lord Justice Taylor carried out the initial report and like this report, found the police and authorities responsible for the disaster and cleared Liverpool supporters. For some reason Lord Justice Taylor was not given access to all relevant documents though - documents relating to the cover-up, medical evidence and much more.

This latest report was given access to all documents and like the previous report, the blame for the disaster lies with the police and relevant authorities and again clears Liverpool supporters. It also proves once and for all that it was the police that leaked lies to the press in an attempt to smear Liverpool supporters and divert the blame from themselves, shows how they altered statements and the medical reports show that (despite what was earlier decided), many of the 96 that died could have survived beyond the 3.15pm cut-off time had the police allowed ambulances onto the pitch.

It's not a case of 1 report is right and 1 is wrong. The first report gave its findings based on the evidence it was shown, this report backs up much of which was found in the earlier report but also goes on to prove much more.

Would everyone be heralding this as the absolute truth if it had found the fans were at fault at all? No, they wouldn't. Thats my issue. The verdict given is simply the only one that would have been accepted by Liverpool fans.

I don't believe that the fans were not at fault in the slightest which is what the report states so no, I don't believe the report and I couldn't care less who compiled it. I'm sure its 95% correct but to not even mention the actions of the fans as a cause tends to lose the report some credibility.

I don't have an issue with the comprehension of the matter, just with the idea that you all seem to be following that there should be no blame apportioned to the fans pushing those in front of them.

 

[BaZ87]

Would everyone be heralding this as the absolute truth if it had found the fans were at fault at all? No, they wouldn't. Thats my issue. The verdict given is simply the only one that would have been accepted by Liverpool fans.

I don't believe that the fans were not at fault in the slightest which is what the report states so no, I don't believe the report and I couldn't care less who compiled it. I'm sure its 95% correct but to not even mention the actions of the fans as a cause tends to lose the report some credibility.

I don't have an issue with the comprehension of the matter, just with the idea that you all seem to be following that there should be no blame apportioned to the fans pushing those in front of them.

If you've got any evidence to support your views then you better get on the phone to South Yorkshire Police, The FA and so on because they're going to need all the defense they can get.

For now, this from Oliver Kay is the best reply to your post:

Those who've campaigned for the truth on Hillsborough were once a suppressed minority. Now the minority are those left clinging to the lies.

It's sad that despite there being no evidence to support any blame on the supporters, some people seemingly want to blame them.

 

[fez]

If you've got any evidence to support your views then you better get on the phone to South Yorkshire Police, The FA and so on because they're going to need all the defense they can get.

For now, this from Oliver Kay is the best reply to your post:



It's sad that despite there being no evidence to support any blame on the supporters, some people seemingly want to blame them.

It is completely impossible for people to be crushed to death if there is no-one pushing them into the barriers. How on earth is that escaping you? The fans were the ones that dealt the killer blow. The police created the situation and the fans completed it. When someone actually explains how you crush a person in a crowd where there is no pushing I will happily accept that the fans share no blame at all.

You seem to be blissfully ignoring the fact that everyone agrees that it was 95% the police's fault but you cannot have someone crushed to death without pushing. I am seriously at a loss as to how you can ignore that. Its not "the fans fault or the polices fault", it's a combination of the two.

You say there is no evidence to support the idea that there is any blame for the supporters which is rubbish. Physics says so. We do tend to take certain things as a given in life without the need for evidence. You can't crush someone to death without any force. Seriously, explain how there was no pushing from any fans during the incident because if there was, that was partially to blame for the deaths.

 

[BaZ87]

Every single document relating to Hillsborough is available online. If you can find any evidence to suggest supporters were to blame then as I said, get on the phone to South Yorkshire Police and make yourself a rich man.

This talk of pushing is *******s btw. You have no understanding of how football was back then and the conditions football supporters were put into and what was the norm to them.

As I said, it's incredibly sad that despite every expert that's looked at the disaster as cleared supporters, internet forum experts like yourself want to find something so you can blame Liverpool supporters with.

 

[fez]

Every single document relating to Hillsborough is available online. If you can find any evidence to suggest supporters were to blame then as I said, get on the phone to South Yorkshire Police and make yourself a rich man.

This talk of pushing is *******s btw. You have no understanding of how football was back then and the conditions football supporters were put into and what was the norm to them.

As I said, it's incredibly sad that despite every expert that's looked at the disaster as cleared supporters, internet forum experts like yourself want to find something so you can blame Liverpool supporters with.

I wouldn't change my view if this was United fans involved. To say "thats what football fans were like back then" is a cop out. How does that remove the fact that some people pushed forwards and those at the front were crushed. By your logic, as long as what you are doing is "normal" behaviour for a football match it's ok.

The simple fact is that this could have easily been avoided by the police and it could have also been avoided if some of the fans wouldn't have behaved like they did.

 

[BaZ87]

I wouldn't change my view if this was United fans involved. To say "thats what football fans were like back then" is a cop out. How does that remove the fact that some people pushed forwards and those at the front were crushed. By your logic, as long as what you are doing is "normal" behaviour for a football match it's ok.

The simple fact is that this could have easily been avoided by the police and it could have also been avoided if some of the fans wouldn't have behaved like they did.

You're starting to sound like DM. Just like him you're resorting to making things up. I didn't say "thats what football fans were like back then".

What I've said is that football supporters back then were used to being packed into pens like sardines - not that that their behaviour was wrong but that's it's ok because it was normal.

Again, this talk of pushing is *******s. To those entering the pens, nothing unusual was happening - it was like entering any pen in those times. They had no idea that how tightly they were packed into the pen was causing the problems at the front of the pen.

 

[Yozz76]

How does that remove the fact that some people pushed forwards and those at the front were crushed. By your logic, as long as what you are doing is "normal" behaviour for a football match it's ok.

How about, THOSE PEOPLE HAD NOWHERE TO TURN! *** Please don't resort to personal attacks ** I'm just getting angry that people are still refusing to accept that the fans that day are not to blame in any way despite of all that is now evident and it is probably best that I do not comment any further.

 

[Rotty]

this is getting a bit out of hand, too late to deal with it now so closed until myself or another mod gets a chance to clean it up and deal with any offenders, will be reopened soon

 

[Admiral Huddy]

Whilst this is a delicate and sensitive subject, we have received a number of complaints and ask you to observe the following:

Everyone is entitled to an opinion whether you agree to that opinion or not is irrelevant. If members are genuinely trying to cause trouble by derailing the thread, trolling or causing a nuisance them please report them and they will be dealt with. Please don’t confuse opinion with trolling.

Please appreciate that this was a long time ago. We therefore encourage you to read and understand the facts about the day itself and the proceeding events and documents before passing comment.

Please think before you post. May I remind everyone that this is a public forum and your comments may cause offense to those that may have been affected directly or indirectly to the incident.

Cut it with the rivalry comments. Any members posting such after this warning will be suspended.

Likewise, please don’t resort to personal attacks or resort to abuse. Again, members will be suspended if found to be doing so.

Our job as moderators is to make sure members stay on the right side of the rules only.

I am releasing this thread on these conditions

Thanks for your time

 

[Tummy]

Cheers Rotty / Huddy.

 

[Robbo]

Very well put, Huddy.

 

[Purdy]

Thanks for stepping in.

So are posts allowed where people make assumptions on who was to blame and claim previous enquiries found x guilty when they actually never did? AKA can you make up facts like half this thread is full of?

 

[Tummy]

I still think Thatcher has something to answer for, and every Government since '89.

The evidence has been there all along. Thatcher could not, not have know (if that makes sense) and I don't believe that it should have taken 23 years. I don't believe for a second that control freak Thatcher allowed these files to slip in to a filing black hole without her knowing. The buck stopped with her. She has managed to escape more hate because there isn't any 'hard' evidence to physically tie her to this. It still doesn't excuse the failing of her Government over this, nor subsicent ones.

The Government has failed to look in to this for the past 23 years, despite the Taylor report blaming the South Yorkshire Police force. There is absolutely no excuse for hiding the truth for 23 years and these 'hollow' apologises from Cameron don't do anything to absolve each Government from its failings.

It's nothing to do with left wing, right wing, hippies or the monster raving looney party. A Goverment failed it's people and hid the truth in an attempt to cover it's own Police force's failings.

Terrible.

Did anyone else see Newsnight on this?

 

[Admiral Huddy]

Thanks for stepping in.

So are posts allowed where people make assumptions on who was to blame and claim previous enquiries found x guilty when they actually never did? AKA can you make up facts like half this thread is full of?

As far as I know, it's not a crime to be ignorant. Nor is it a rule break so it's up to you to decide if that member is worth the time responding to or not..


It's also my opinion that we should educate those that may not be aware of the full facts and details. I think this is important looking ahead.

 

[Purdy]

As far as I know, it's not a crime to be ignorant. Nor is it a rule break so it's up to you to decide if that member is worth the time responding to or not..


It's also my opinion that we should educate those that may not be aware of the full facts and details. I think this is important looking ahead.

It has been tried for about the past 8 pages, everyone's mind seems set in stone

 

[grimm]

It will be very interesting to see if anything comes of this.

I just can't see it personally. Some people in this thread are saying that this latest report is cast iron proof, but I have read most of it myself now and it's just not worded like that at all.

We will find out the true value of this report, and David Cameron's words, when it goes to court, if it indeed gets that far. That they have quashed the verdict of the earlier inquest is a positive start though.

 

[Tummy]

As far as I know, it's not a crime to be ignorant. Nor is it a rule break so it's up to you to decide if that member is worth the time responding to or not..


It's also my opinion that we should educate those that may not be aware of the full facts and details. I think this is important looking ahead.

I agree that the key is to educate people, that's true in life in general. It's however a massive problem when people have their opinions set in stone and are close minded.

 

[BaZ87]

That they have quashed the verdict of the earlier inquest is a positive start though.

You claim to have read so much about the disaster but you're getting very basic things completely wrong.

They haven't had the verdict of the original inquest quashed. Not yet anyway. The Attorney General has to look over the report and decide whether there is enough new evidence to have the old verdict overturned and then apply to the high court to do so. That's going to take some time to go through but it almost certainly will happen (the Attorney General has hinted at it already) and when it does a new inquest will take place (as well as private court cases I should imagine).

South Yorkshire Police are also beginning their own review with the matter likely to be referred to the Independent Police Complaints Commission.

 

[grimm]

You claim to have read so much about the disaster but you're getting very basic things completely wrong.

They haven't had the verdict of the original inquest quashed. Not yet anyway. The Attorney General has to look over the report and decide whether there is enough new evidence to have the old verdict overturned and then apply to the high court to do so. That's going to take some time to go through but it almost certainly will happen (the Attorney General has hinted at it already) and when it does a new inquest will take place (as well as private court cases I should imagine).

South Yorkshire Police are also beginning their own review with the matter likely to be referred to the Independent Police Complaints Commission.

Sorry my mistake, I thought that was pretty much a given (as someone pointed out earlier in this thread) though but I guess we will have to wait and see? So really there's been no progress at all made so far then.

I admit my focus at the moment has been on reading that 389 page report (as much as possible).