Hillsborough Disaster

[guyfawkes5]

Oh, and that cause is not the same as fault. The crowd were the cause of the crush in that, yes, if they weren't there, there wouldn't have been a crush, but that doesn't make them at fault. If a man falls out of a window by accident and lands on me, injuring me, he might have been the physical cause of my injury, but he's hardly at fault for it.

I think nearly all of the points made in this regard did not address fault collectively. Certainly anyone actually killed or harmed by the crowd are beyond reproach as to receive their injuries they would have had to have been near the fringes of the pens, and not near the rear of the crowd where the physical pressure was being generated. In any case the vast, vast majority of the crowd are blameless, I think posters were just getting at that logically and obviously there must have been a few individuals at the rear that caused the domino effect, and unfortunately victimhood further up the chain.

To use your analogy, if the person that fell out the window harmed you, he certainly would not have been to blame, but what if he was in a queue and someone three people behind him tried to barge up the line which in turn threw him out the window? What about this person? And if barging didn't occur, what realistic chain of events caused this person to leave the room via the window?

To be completely honest this will probably be my last post as this tangent is ultimately disrespectful to the general idea of the thread, regardless of the validity of the point contained within. Trying to appropriation a realistic amount of responsibility to a faceless, tiny minority is not worth attracting blame to the vast amount of victims and detracting it from the organisational failures that day, which are by far the majority factors which led to that day's events.

 

[Weebull]

That's just it though. The level of abstraction between the people at the back and those in danger was so much that it became part of the problem. It's not just a queue of three people, or any kind of group small enough for you to be able to see what affect you might actually be having on those at the other end.

We've all had to squeeze in behind or push past someone to get in somewhere before, regardless of what the "a good queue would have solved everything" people might seem to think. That, on a mass scale, with no clear space beyond to actually take up any slack is all it takes for bad accidents to happen, not deliberate nastiness.

EDIT: If people think I'm also ruining this thread please say, and I'll stop. But until then I'm afraid the people just failing to get how crowd dynamics work is just going to bug me too much not to respond.

 

[guyfawkes5]

That's still a chance you're taking though, and worse still it is a chance you're taking with other people. Even if our hypothetical queue is 100 people long, that person that shoved at the back is either doing so at worst in complete ignorance or at best on the baseless assumption that the people ahead of him/her have space to enter. Both are not 'excuses' in the truest sense of the word, and while you may not be able to argue a malicious intent or even responsibility in the realms of criminality or morality, you can surely argue a degree of negligence on that individual's behalf (and not on the queue as a whole). As I remarked earlier, the police's ultimate failure was to save the crowd from itself, which is their (the police force's) responsibility to bear.

*Edit: Whoops, broke my word. I think the point's been made well enough at this point regardless, so discussion about policing, etc, that day can continue unabated.

 

[Loki]

I am seeing a lot of talk about pushing from the back and having some kind of choice. It's very easy to make that kind of judgement looking at a report and not having being going to stand up stadia.

I think a little perspective for people like Grimm is that fans were not so much allowed to freely walk upto the stadium, show a ticket and walk in. Fans, and I think the best way to describe it, were herded into grounds. Herded like cattle and treated like Animals. If you didn't like queing there was no going back unless you wanted a clip round the back of the legs off a Bobby's Batton. No CCTV to protect your civil rights. Crowd control back in the 80's was lines of mounted police or in riot gear. It was very much a herd mentality with coppers just shouting at you to keep moving and that's the mentality of crowds they keep moving despite what danger was in front.

I remember when the Stretford End was all standing along with the Stretford Paddock and Crazy corner. The first season Leeds Utd came up we played them in the league cup home and away. Tension's running high not only in fans but in the police. Police constantly pushing you to hurry up into a turnstile you had to walk into sideways because it was so narrow. I eventually get into the Stretford End. We won 2-1 and it is no exageration to say I started at the top only to be somewhere near the middle within seconds of us scoring the first goal. Thats in a ground with a safety certificate, pre all seater stadia and wider access points.

I know it sounds Old Man River but unfortunately, and through no fault of their own, I think some of the younger people who have not been to football in the 70's, 80's and 90's simply cannot relate to how fans were treated, stewarded and policed back then compared to now. It is two worlds

 

[wedgie]

Laying some of the blame on the crowd is missing the point by quite a wide margin. Yes it is the responsibility of each individual to not act like a prat, but what you can't do is expect the collective to act as one, because it's impossible. Whoever is in charge of security, it is their job to ensure things going smoothly person to person and for the group as a whole, it is their responsibility when this does not happen.

If it can be proved that there was a coordinated effort by a large percentage of the crowd to cause this, then you can potentially say that the security were hit with something they couldn't reasonably be expected to handle well. But that's not the case is it, and pointing out that there were idiots in crowds then as there are today doesn't absolve the police of accountability when things go so badly wrong.

 

[Mr.Pink]

Laying some of the blame on the crowd is missing the point by quite a wide margin. Yes it is the responsibility of each individual to not act like a prat, but what you can't do is expect the collective to act as one, because it's impossible. Whoever is in charge of security, it is their job to ensure things going smoothly person to person and for the group as a whole, it is their responsibility when this does not happen.

If it can be proved that there was a coordinated effort by a large percentage of the crowd to cause this, then you can potentially say that the security were hit with something they couldn't reasonably be expected to handle well. But that's not the case is it, and pointing out that there were idiots in crowds then as there are today doesn't absolve the police of accountability when things go so badly wrong.

Top Post!

 

[Robbo]

Did you ignore the earlier warnings? Stop being so obnoxious.

 

[BaZ87]

By the sounds of it there's been so great marks of respect from supporters around the country today - unfortunately but not suprisingly, there's have been some sick chants at one ground.

 

[Robbo]

By the sounds of it there's been so great marks of respect from supporters around the country today - unfortunately but not suprisingly, there's have been some sick chants at one ground.

Which one, hopefully not Old Trafford?

 

[Tom84]

Which one, hopefully not Old Trafford?

I'd imagine by the tone of Baz's post I'm guessing it probably was

 

[BaZ87]

Yes, Old Trafford. Unfortunately when a few idiots start chanting things, mob mentality kicks in and a lot of semi-sensible people join in.

 

[Cosimo]

Yes, Old Trafford. Unfortunately when a few idiots start chanting things, mob mentality kicks in and a lot of semi-sensible people join in.

Out of interest where are you getting this information from?

 

[Robbo]

Yes, Old Trafford. Unfortunately when a few idiots start chanting things, mob mentality kicks in and a lot of semi-sensible people join in.

No. Nobody with any sense would chant those things.

If things are being chanted as you are suggesting, the people cannot be excused, and I certainly don't consider them to be fans, more like low life scum who have managed to infiltrate the stadium.

 

[Bucket]

It would be interesting to hear what chant this supposedly is. Watching the game with a pretty decent sound of what the crowd are singing and not heard anything like it.

 

[BaZ87]

Out of interest where are you getting this information from?

I heard it with my own two ears. It's also been reported by jounros on twitter too.

No. Nobody with any sense would chant those things.

If things are being chanted as you are suggesting, the people cannot be excused, and I certainly don't consider them to be fans, more like low life scum who have managed to infiltrate the stadium.

It's not an excuse, it's just simply something that happens though. Lots of people that would never normally chant such a thing get caught up with the whole mob mentality and join in. This isn't an isolated incident nor specific to Utd - lots of people will chant/do things in a football stadium that they'd never dream of saying or doing in any other situation.

It would be interesting to hear what chant this supposedly is. Watching the game with a pretty decent sound of what the crowd are singing and not heard anything like it.

"Always the victim. It's never your fault."

I could make it out quite easily. It was sung around the time of the last Hillsborough anniversary too.

 

[grimm]

Isn't it true that there are chants about the Munich disaster also?

I don't think Liverpool fans are alone in being on the receiving end of inappropriate chants.

 

[Robbo]

Isn't it true that there are chants about the Munich disaster also?

I don't think Liverpool fans are alone in being on the receiving end of inappropriate chants.

Yes, and they will almost certainly continue, sadly. They should isolate the people doing these things and just ban them all.

 

[BaZ87]

Isn't it true that there are chants about the Munich disaster also?

I don't think Liverpool fans are alone in being on the receiving end of inappropriate chants.

Nobody said Liverpool are the only ones on the receiving end - I don't know of any recent examples of Munich chants being sung on mass or by enough to get noticed though. There undoubtedly are idiots that sing or make gestures referring to Munich though.

 

[Purdy]

Isn't it true that there are chants about the Munich disaster also?

I don't think Liverpool fans are alone in being on the receiving end of inappropriate chants.

Yes, and I've read articles that stoke are actually worse than both of our scum when their away fans travel for singing about Munich oddly to old trafford in recent years.

Both sets of fans have scum, like it or not though united fans sing about Liverpool 'always the victim' on a regular occasion when not facing Liverpool.

Then again Liverpool fans threw **** on united fans from upper annie a few seasons back. Both have scum, both need a few fans shot and it will never ever change.

To be honest a lot of teams do it, seems only United and Liverpool get discussed due to both having major tragedies and both dishing it out also.

 

[Purdy]

Nobody said Liverpool are the only ones on the receiving end - I don't know of any recent examples of Munich chants being sung on mass or by enough to get noticed though. There undoubtedly are idiots that sing or make gestures referring to Munich though.

Kenny's first game back seemed to have a fair few didn't it? Sadly you only need to go to youtube to see it happens on several occasions even before the match at OT.

Coxy ‏@Thecoxs
@BenSmithBBC You able to ask SAF about it ?

7m Ben Smith ‏@BenSmithBBC
@Thecoxs I will yes. Have asked club for a response

Seems you were right BaZ, maybe something might be done about it by the club this time since the media are going to ask. (Finally)

Elliott Cantor ‏@ElliottCantor
#JFT96 chant started by Leeds fans, respected and applauded by the whole ground. #LFC #LUFC #Bluebirds @maxmunton

Retweeted by This Is Anfield

and Man City fans:

steveb ‏@stevebradshaw4
@TonyBarretTimes man city fans give a redention of YNWA followed by blue moon ...supporters united together as one ..touch of class

On a slightly classier note.