Hillsborough Disaster

So really there's been no progress at all made so far then.

Since the release of the findings? Other than to once and for all put to bed some of the lies (although a very small minority are desperate clinging onto them), nothing tangible has happened yet but what do you expect? The report has only just been released.

As a matter of urgency the Attorney General is considering making an application to the High Court and South Yorkshire Police are beginning their own review - and a referral to the Independent Police Complaints Commission has actually been confirmed by their Chief Constable, not just likely to happen as I first said. The Chief Constable has even mentioned the possibility of corporate manslaughter charges as well as manslaughter chargers being brought against individuals.
 
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Argh. I had a massive post and it's been lost to the vagaries of the internet.

The abridged version is that you must be some kind of special autistic shut-in not to understand how crowds work. I like the idea of people physically pushing each other in like a piano up a hill though, that's quite something.

EDIT: Oh, and that cause is not the same as fault. The crowd were the cause of the crush in that, yes, if they weren't there, there wouldn't have been a crush, but that doesn't make them at fault. If a man falls out of a window by accident and lands on me, injuring me, he might have been the physical cause of my injury, but he's hardly at fault for it.
 
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Did they?

I always read that the poorly designed and ageing turnstiles had a lot to do with causing a massive queue outside.... Can we also blame the owners of Hillsborough for shoddy maintenance and poor planning?
Apparently the Hillsborough had an out-of-date safety certificate, and the FA still awarded them the semi-final, knowing this.
 
Apparently the Hillsborough had an out-of-date safety certificate, and the FA still awarded them the semi-final, knowing this.

The FA were also made aware of safety concerns from the previous 2 years' semi-finals that were held at Hillsborough.

edit: Re the safety certificate - it definitely is true. Sheffield Council, Sheffield Wednesday and the FA knew about this and concerns over safety from the '87 and '88 semi-finals.
 
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It was a big mistake by the FA to award or rather continue to award the games at Hillsborough and Sheffield Wednesday should have done more to meet the requirements for the certificate.
 
It was a big mistake by the FA to award or rather continue to award the games at Hillsborough and Sheffield Wednesday should have done more to meet the requirements for the certificate.

The craziest thing is that Hillsborough lost its right to hold semi-finals in 1981 when many Spurs fans were very nearly killed in a similar incident (it was only down to the polices decision to open the gates at the front of the pen that prevented a disaster that day). You'd have thought that after a very near disaster, they'd be overly cautious before reappointing Hillsborough.
 
THe bolded bit, it can if, say a room can hold 500 people at absolute max capacity and one more person will cause someone to be crushed, then if a 501st person pushes into that room it will basically require a constant force for him to even stay in the room. Basically too many people in any area = constant force. Think of two people hugging really tight, you put effort into simply pulling someone into you(and not even crushing force) as soon as you stop pulling you move apart.
Ok, so now imagine that "room" has 3,000 people in it. Except that you can't tell that, because nobody could count a mass of people of that number easily. You can't even see the other side anyway, all you can really see is a few metres into the room. It might not even be that busy by the door, with a few signs of what looks like space beyond the first few people.

But the thing is, you've been told that there are no more than 500 people in this room. So whilst it looks like it's packed near the door, you probably assume that there's plenty of space beyond it. It can and does happen all the time. So maybe a little bit of squeezing to get in, but once there, you're all gravy.

Are you really saying that if you travelled across the country to get to this room, having paid money to be there, and under the assumption that there would only be enough tickets for the right amount of people to fit into this room, you wouldn't even be tempted to try to get in? You'd just turn around and walk away?

Oh sorry, you can't walk away. Turns out there are now loads of people around you, also looking to get into the room, and you're stuck.


To use one of your analogies, have you ever been to a tube station where it's really packed by the entrance/exit, but there's more space further down the platform? I mean, that's true of nearly every station I've ever been in.

Are you telling me you've never had to push past people to get to that space?

I've been in loads of stituations with massive crowds, patiently waiting at the back and even eventually having to be turned away. Onto massively packed tube stations where if everyone at the back simply pushed, hundreds of people would be pushed onto the tracks, the insanely tight and cramped corridoors at Highbury, near the front in concerts.
DM, I'm confused. Are you really saying that the same Liverpool fans who had already gone to god knows how many home and away games in just that season without incident, suddenly decided to abandon all sense and start pushing each other in? I mean, you even say it yourself:

LIke I said, people packed in like sardines in thousands of terraces for decades with barely a problem, yet this one time fans were incapable of seeing when an area was full, and just ploughed on in anyway?
Erm, maybe because the organisation of this particular event was at fault?
 
Just because they didn't know there was no space at the front and decided to do a bit of pushing, doesn't mean that they didn't contribute to the crush. All it does is remove the intent. Nobody in this thread has said that anyone intended to cause the crush. It was just an unfortunate combination of factors.
 
Just because they didn't know there was no space at the front and decided to do a bit of pushing, doesn't mean that they didn't contribute to the crush. All it does is remove the intent. Nobody in this thread has said that anyone intended to cause the crush. It was just an unfortunate combination of factors.

Was that included in the 389 pages of the report you've claimed to have read or are you making things up?

There's a very big difference from pushing people in front of you to trying to squeeze yourself into the back of the pen.
 
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Just because they didn't know there was no space at the front and decided to do a bit of pushing, doesn't mean that they didn't contribute to the crush. All it does is remove the intent. Nobody in this thread has said that anyone intended to cause the crush. It was just an unfortunate combination of factors.

Really? That seems completely at odds with what you said when you first wandered into the thread (and I'll highlight):

Ah right, that didn't seem clear from the document to me. Are you sure it's made up by the police? There are always a few bad apples you know... To me it is believable that someone could have said/done those things however I imagine the police just used those few idiots as a way to use the whole Liverpool crowd as a scapegoat. Not trying to cloud the real issue or say that it gets the police off the hook, but there are always a few scumbags around.

Not trying to take anything away from the issue though, it was incredibly tragic and disgusting the way it was swept under the carpet. I hope they manage to actually find the relevant people accountable now.

Maybe you didn't mean to link cause and intent quite so implicitly, but surely you can see from looking back at this post now, it very much comes across that way?

As for anybody else in this thread, DM has repeatedly mentioned "personal responsibility" for people in the crowd, whilst continually failing to grasp that in crowd situations people don't actually have very much "personal responsibility."

I can see that there may have been some people who were simply talking about pushing* as a factor, but instead of simply trying to clarify any statements, all they did for the last however-many-posts was antagonise inogen (and other posters) on an extremely emotive subject, and then have the gall to be surprised when he got angry. It's a real shame people can't just say "look, hold up, you've misunderstood me here, and I'm sorry if I wasn't clear," but of course, this is the internet, so the other person is stupid for not grasping what you've tried to say, never vice versa.

*Again though, I'm not entirely certain how we're defining pushing here. Pushing implies that someone outside is deliberately trying to force the person in front further in. I don't think I've ever seen that in any crowd, so I don't know why you would think it happened here.
 
Crowd crushes happen everywhere. I've been in a nasty(ish) one myself. Nowhere near the scale of Hillsborough, thank god, but it got to the stuffy, hot, unable-to-move moment of "uh oh," and then people started falling over on me. There was literally nothing anyone could do to get us up at first either, because there's no just no way to make space.

You might be able to make the point that crushes happen as a result of human nature/behaviour, which is true, but the whole point of an organisational body is to manage these things. In my situation, the lead singer stopped the song and told everyone in the crowd to move the **** back, and it was all over pretty quickly. At Hillsborough, the police refused to acknowledge a problem, and continued to tell people to pile in. Thus, they are the ones at fault here.

Trying to blame people within the crowd is ridiculous, because no-one knows what's going on. For the rest of my weekend at that festival, there was never any other crowd trouble at all, despite it being full of exactly the same people who'd caused that one crush. Strange, that.
 
Really? That seems completely at odds with what you said when you first wandered into the thread (and I'll highlight):



Maybe you didn't mean to link cause and intent quite so implicitly, but surely you can see from looking back at this post now, it very much comes across that way?

As for anybody else in this thread, DM has repeatedly mentioned "personal responsibility" for people in the crowd, whilst continually failing to grasp that in crowd situations people don't actually have very much "personal responsibility."

I can see that there may have been some people who were simply talking about pushing* as a factor, but instead of simply trying to clarify any statements, all they did for the last however-many-posts was antagonise inogen (and other posters) on an extremely emotive subject, and then have the gall to be surprised when he got angry. It's a real shame people can't just say "look, hold up, you've misunderstood me here, and I'm sorry if I wasn't clear," but of course, this is the internet, so the other person is stupid for not grasping what you've tried to say, never vice versa.

*Again though, I'm not entirely certain how we're defining pushing here. Pushing implies that someone outside is deliberately trying to force the person in front further in. I don't think I've ever seen that in any crowd, so I don't know why you would think it happened here.

Nevermind, going to stop posting now. It's totally pointless when people quote things out of context.
 
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Nevermind, going to stop posting now. It's totally pointless when people quote things out of context.

I hope this doesn't annoy you (or others) by me saying it, but this is very much my point. If you say you didn't mean to imply the things you did, then fair enough, I take your word for it, and I'm sorry if I misunderstood you.

But if you show 100 people what looks like a duck, and 99 say they saw a duck, you wouldn't really say "no, it's quite clearly a shoe that I showed you all, stop being so stupid," would you? You'd say "oh yeah, I guess it does look a bit like a duck from this angle, sorry about that."

If you keep being "misquoted" and "taken out of context," then usually it's a good point to wonder if you made the best first impression. I always try to use the rule myself that if one person gets me wrong, and everybody else understands, they're the one at fault, but if everybody misunderstands me, I obviously didn't make the right first impression. Obviously I was always right though. ;)

I'm not trying to kick off the argument again, just have one of those nice "can't we all just get along", end of Sesame Street moments here.
 
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