Of course, if they paid it they couldn't pass on the savings and if the margin was smaller none of us would bother with the risk however small. Again you are free to do what you want but it's just another form of avoiding what you should be paying to contribute to the country, it's not for no reason.
How many buy Grey vs Local ?
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Of course, if they paid it they couldn't pass on the savings and if the margin was smaller none of us would bother with the risk however small. Again you are free to do what you want but it's just another form of avoiding what you should be paying to contribute to the country, it's not for no reason.
The prices were even cheaper when I visited Japan.... Just hadn't decided what I wanted then.
Yeah I will take slightly higher prices rather than a busted economy for the last 20 years because no one is buying anything due to it being cheaper the next week
they do other things to reduce costs E.g. splitting up kit lenses and selling camera and lens seperately, if people return an item under DSR then they are more likely to sell the camera as new despite it being opened. They can also avoid minimum pricing rules.
Another big difference is the regional price differences. Pricing in china might be 20% less than Europe for example so a chinese model where they swapped the charging cable will see a big saving even if they pay all taxes.
However avoiding taxes and duties is a big part of the difference. I looked at a few lenses recently at B&H without sales tax included and compared to DR, taking into account the 4% cash back from B&H there was almost no difference, typically just $20-50 or a couple of % depending on the lens. You can also see that looking at grey pricing on B&H, the prices just aren't that much lower when taxes are equalized.
For example, Sigma 150-600mm Sports:
B&H is $1999, 4% cash back so $1919. Digital Rev is the cheapest Grey, price $1859. So $60 cheaper but you get whatever warranty DR provide instead of a 5 year official Nikon US warranty which is worth so much more than $60, let alone the customer service differences.
Sigma 24mm ART, $799 from B&H with $% cashback = $815, the cheapest grey import is $799. I'll take the 5 year Nikon warranty for $15 please.
Nikon 300mm F/4.0 PF, $1999 on BH,with cashback that is $1919. Digital Rev price, $1999. I would much get paid $80 to have an official Nikon 5 year warranty thank you very much!
However you occasionally get some oddities. E.g.a Nikon 300mm f/2.8 is cheaper in the UK than The US despite 20% tax difference.
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Soldato
Failing to see why the B&H comparisons are relevant to those in the UK?
They are relevant because it shows that when you ignore tax differences then the grey imports just aren't much cheaper at all, therefore if you want to comply with the law and pay taxes and duty then there is very little savings with Grey imports.
Soldato
Canon EF 24-70mm f2.8L II USM
- HDEW - £1259 in UK with VAT included.
- Jessops - £1400
- B&H - $1900 (£1225 + VAT on import)
I feel there is little more to say, but if you add the correct tax to your B&H prices even against in UK grey with V.A.T. prices they are worse. Therefore nullifying the point in the comparison to start with.
Stick with £ vs. £ rather than trying to muddy the matter.
I'm not muddying the water, you are just trying to make this far more complex
I live in the US and use will buy form B&H so the comparison is very valid. When you remove the tax and duty differences then the grey prices just aren't that much lower, which is kind of obvious.
And I wouldn't be so sure of the HDEW VAT being paid, it is almost certainly not which is why the prices are consistently 20% less than UK stock. HDEW is owned by the same company that owns Portus Digital, who don't pay VAT (their website explicitly states that you are the importer and you will have to pay VAT and duty yourself). You only get a VAT receipt from HDEW if you ask for it, most people don't so they don't charge VAT. Selling at a loss to the few people that asked for VAT receipts means they can keep up a pretense of a legitimate business. For a majority of HDEW sales the item will be sold the same as Portus and ******* where you are the importer and responsible for all taxes.
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Soldato
HDEW have a shop and you can pick it up locally if you so desire, therefore you are not an importer, and have no worries about duty and V.A.T. no being declared.
They are V.A.T. registered (671947988) and you can check the validity here:http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/vies/vieshome.do?selectedLanguage=EN
Alao you being in the US means you are the 1%, the majority of people here are in the U.K. and dollar price comparisons are irrelevant.
They are V.A.T. registered (671947988) and you can check the validity here:http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/vies/vieshome.do?selectedLanguage=EN
Alao you being in the US means you are the 1%, the majority of people here are in the U.K. and dollar price comparisons are irrelevant.
Caporegime
Slightly off topic...a B&H catalogue came through the door the other day...
HDEW do have a warehouse where they do import some stuff, and yeah if you ask for a VAt recipt you will get one, but if you don't you wont get one because they wont have paid VAT. HDEW is owned by the same people who Portus Digital and possibly *******. The parent company is Validhurst, which is VAT registered, but that doesn't mean they are paying VAT on every item they sell!
The B&H comparison is valid for everyone because it shows you what the prices are like if you can take VAT and duty out of the equation and look at the raw prices before any possible illegal tax fraud is committed. You can't do that with HDEW an the like because you have no proof they are paying VAT, only proof that their partner companies don't pay VAT.
If you compare B&H with say DigitelRev in the US then you can really see the grey vs local prices differences without anything illegal muddying the water as you say. The differences are much smaller, or even non existent, which just shows you that beyond some practices like splitting up kit lenses the biggest differences European buyers see is from tax fraud.
There are exceptions with grey imports in the US being substantially cheaper but it is no where near the same extent as in the UK.
It is is At the end of the day there are only a few things the grey importers can do to lower prices:
- Split kit lenses up and sell separately
- Pawn off refurbished items as new
- Resell returned items as new
- Get stock intended for different regions with that regions pricing, repackage as local stock.
- Don't declare VAT or duty correctly.
The first 3 don't generate much savings and can annoying customers, plenty of evidence this is done extensively with some of the grey importers.
The last item is known to be done by most grey importers, it explicitly states on the website that the buyer acts as an importer and is responsible for all taxes and fees )e.g. *******, Portus etc. DR used to do this but I think they might have changed).
The region pricing differences can make a savings, and this is why you can end up with out a warranty and Asia regional camera.
They can't magic savings out of thin air.
Soldato
Wow, you really hate the global market huh?
As for HDEW, I have been and collected my second 5D MkIII from their office/shop (not warehouse), and did not need to ask for a V.A.T. receipt it was issued to me alongside the brand new (inspected) camera.
If I have taken all the necessary measures to ensure I am following the correct path, but I am not about to call in PWC to audit a shop or a supplier every time I buy something.
You clearly dislike the fact that items can be bought cheaper, with all the due diligence a normal buyer/consumer should do. Next time you go to B&H please make sure they are paying all the correct taxes to the american government, since clearly you disbelieve that any one can run a business on small margins.
Grey is now an aged, and frankly out-dated term. Companies need to be global, and limiting their warranties, and forcing people to pay more due to physical location just creates all of these 'import' businesses.
As for HDEW, I have been and collected my second 5D MkIII from their office/shop (not warehouse), and did not need to ask for a V.A.T. receipt it was issued to me alongside the brand new (inspected) camera.
If I have taken all the necessary measures to ensure I am following the correct path, but I am not about to call in PWC to audit a shop or a supplier every time I buy something.
You clearly dislike the fact that items can be bought cheaper, with all the due diligence a normal buyer/consumer should do. Next time you go to B&H please make sure they are paying all the correct taxes to the american government, since clearly you disbelieve that any one can run a business on small margins.
Grey is now an aged, and frankly out-dated term. Companies need to be global, and limiting their warranties, and forcing people to pay more due to physical location just creates all of these 'import' businesses.
No, I would much prefer the camera companies to stop regional products and warranties.
What I do hate is illegal business practices that reduced taxes as well as make it even harder for genuine bricks and mortar business.
Because you had visited the shop. If you purchased it online would you have got the VAT receipt automatically? Likely not going by what people online are saying.
Sure, but if you buy from the likes of Panomoz and Portus then you are responsible for paying VAT and duty.
No, nothing stop me also buying the item cheaper through HDEW. See my first point though, i don't like illegal business practices and countries loosing taxes. next time there is a cut at NHS or in a school or library have a think about any taxes you avoided.
It has nothing to do with small margins. Do you think all the UK based companies are in some kind of illegal price fixing scam? Margins on camera gear are notoriously low, often in the 5-10% range. A camera shop can make more profit selling you a camera bag or memory card then thy will from a DSLR. There simply isn't margins to cut, which is why the grey imports are not much cheaper unless they avoid taxes.
At last something I agree with.
So You don't pay VAT if you buy from Portus?
It says on their site:
The total on your invoice includes applicable taxes & charges.
It also says:
When you buy a product on our site you recognise that Portus Digital is sourcing the product on your behalf and making it available for you to import directly from the country of origin.
So I'm confused.
It says on their site:
The total on your invoice includes applicable taxes & charges.
It also says:
When you buy a product on our site you recognise that Portus Digital is sourcing the product on your behalf and making it available for you to import directly from the country of origin.
So I'm confused.
The latter is all you need to know, they hip you an item and you have to pay VAT and Duty if you don't want to commit tax fraud. This makes their bussiness legal because they are just importers, you are the importer and you wil be responsible for import related costs.
What they mean by the first statement is the price you see if the price they will charge, they don't add any VAT or other handling charges at checkout. THE VAT will be left to you when you get the package.
What they mean by the first statement is the price you see if the price they will charge, they don't add any VAT or other handling charges at checkout. THE VAT will be left to you when you get the package.
So for a D810 (body only) Portus are charging £1,754.99 inc delivery and 3-year warranty.
Say you pay the VAT yourself, you're looking at £2,106.
The cheapest UK D810 according to camerapricebuster is £2,347 so what 'extra' are you getting for your £241?
£241 is quite a lot of money, never mind the £592 saving if you weren't to declare the VAT yourself.
I'm not suggesting it's right but I can see why people go grey…
Say you pay the VAT yourself, you're looking at £2,106.
The cheapest UK D810 according to camerapricebuster is £2,347 so what 'extra' are you getting for your £241?
£241 is quite a lot of money, never mind the £592 saving if you weren't to declare the VAT yourself.
I'm not suggesting it's right but I can see why people go grey…
Mostly the difference is down to warranty and ease of repair, e.g. Nikon won't repair a grey market camera even if you are willing to pay.
So then it is just a gamble of weather the warranty offered by the grey importer is good enough vs the savings. The worst case scenario you end up with an expensive repair bill.
I can also see why people go grey and it can make sense but people shouldn't be deluded into thinking the savings don't largely come from tax fraud and other business practices that are unsavory, e.g. Splitting lens kits , selling lightly used refurbs as new. It certainly isn't the case that they simply lower their margins, margins are already low.l which is why high street stores struggle.
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Well there is a real reason, to pay into the system that has supported you for a large period of your life. It's not just an increased price because the shops feel like it.
Not that I'm against your choice but to say for no real reason, well that's not true.
You're right and I agree, perhaps I should rephrase it to no real detrimental effect on the end user (short term).