HUNGARORING - BUDAPEST - HUNGARY Grand Prix 2009 - Race 10/17

[JRS]

Hack me off? It doesn't nothing of the sort

Your continued protestations that he's a crap driver who did nothing to earn that seat sort-of say otherwise....

In his first season at Ferrari he finished ahead of Schumacher 6 times. Out of 18 races. Beating a 7-time world champion in 1/3rd of the races of a season is a pretty good effort for a crap driver. Sure, he hadn't won a race or visited the podium many times in the previous seasons. But he'd been a Ferrari test driver, so presumably they knew he had what it took to deliver wins for them.

 

[Glaucus]

I cant remember the exact details - but considering Surtees death and Massa accident, they should be considerably more cautious with ANY kind of potential debris

After all remember at the point where Alonso had to go round for a whole lap at a fraction of the speed he was out of the race / points anyway so yur endangering people for no good reason at all after coming out of the pits

but that requires rule changes or the FIA to say we will use existing rules more than we used to. Until then, teams have no choice but to continue to do what they have always done before. It doesn't matter if he is out the points. They have sponsors to keep happy and data on the car to be collected. Especially with no testing. Which means they have a very good reason to carry on.

 

[FrankJH]

but that requires rule changes or the FIA to say we will use existing rules more than we used to. Until then, teams have no choice but to continue to do what they have always done before. It doesn't matter if he is out the points. They have sponsors to keep happy and data on the car to be collected. Especially with no testing. Which means they have a very good reason to carry on.

And the sponsors are going to be happy if they are associated with another accident - no I very much doubt they are.

The team arent likely to get viable data from a damaged car, they know whats likely to happen (even Brundle knew in the commentary a lap before Alonso actually retired) so the team sure as **** knew

 

[Vertigo]

Aside from Spa, which was ludicrous, which of his other penalities that year were "seriously dubious"?

...

But to say that every single brush with officialdom he had that year was all just the FIA and stewards out to get him and help other drivers beat him?

I didn't say "every single brush with officialdom", stop putting words in my mouth!

I said "several", by which I mean the obvious one at Spa and would also include turn one at Japan and the "chicane hopping".

In the case of Japan, omg he went too deep into turn one - yeah I'm sure he did that deliberately! No-one has ever received a penalty for that type of thing before and most comments I read at the time agreed it was daft to impose one then.

As for the chicane hopping, I can't remember it clearly now but, at the time, I remember thinking it was a very close call and also that Massa had got away with something very similar, either at the same race or a recent one. Can't seem to find any video footage of it to remind myself of the specifics of that one though.

Even if just the Spa decision had been overturned, Hamilton would have won the championship in China.

 

[Glaucus]

And the sponsors are going to be happy if they are associated with another accident - no I very much doubt they are.

The team arent likely to get viable data from a damaged car, they know whats likely to happen (even Brundle knew in the commentary a lap before Alonso actually retired) so the team sure as **** knew

What. Plenty of cars have gone on to finish a race after having three wheels. After all the only likely damage is the skid pan.

So no it's not as stupid as you make out.

 

[dannyjo22]

Your continued protestations that he's a crap driver who did nothing to earn that seat sort-of say otherwise....

In his first season at Ferrari he finished ahead of Schumacher 6 times. Out of 18 races. Beating a 7-time world champion in 1/3rd of the races of a season is a pretty good effort for a crap driver. Sure, he hadn't won a race or visited the podium many times in the previous seasons. But he'd been a Ferrari test driver, so presumably they knew he had what it took to deliver wins for them.

Haha twice in the whole time I've used this forum I think I've called him a monkey. Anyway prior to landing his chumpy backside in the ferrari what are you saying he actually did to deserve the seat alongside the great shuey?

The ability to write an X next to driver no 2 or the X next to manager mr Todt?



Kimis complete lack of anything since he won the title has flattered Massa. A top half interested driver would have took that title off hamilton last year. When Alonso sits his backside in the ferrari next year you will see a completely different ferrari and team.

Were the other incidences like that though?
Seeing as we've had wheels full of at the end of the pit lane before.

No because the assumption has been the wheel is on properly. Where as this time the whole pitlane could see it wasn't.

They need to get rid of those gay old aero spinners as they are a huge giveaway

 

[JRS]

I didn't say "every single brush with officialdom", stop putting words in my mouth!

Apologies

I said "several", by which I mean the obvious one at Spa and would also include turn one at Japan and the "chicane hopping".

Right, so now you've clarified it....

In the case of Japan, omg he went too deep into turn one - yeah I'm sure he did that deliberately! No-one has ever received a penalty for that type of thing before and most comments I read at the time agreed it was daft to impose one then.

The question the stewards would have asked was "was it dangerous?", not "was it deliberate?". The fact that he ended up destroying his tyres suggests it was a little dangerous. FWIW, I'm still not entirely certain the penalty was justified. But then, I'm still not certain Massa's penalty for nerfing Hamilton off later in the lap was either since Hamilton left him no room at the apex. Hey ho.

As for the chicane hopping, I can't remember it clearly now but, at the time, I remember thinking it was a very close call and also that Massa had got away with something very similar, either at the same race or a recent one. Can't seem to find any video footage of it to remind myself of the specifics of that one though.

Allow me to refresh your memory. He overtook Vettel at the chicane on the first lap, completely missing the apex as he did and cutting across the run-off area. He didn't cede the place back. Therefore he was penalised. Spa, in contrast, was a farce as he gave the place back and the stewards had to invent a brand new offence just to get him.

Even if just the Spa decision had been overturned, Hamilton would have won the championship in China.

Well, since he won the title anyway....can we finally call this one a case of "no harm, no foul" or shall we continue to bleat about Ferrari International Assistance?

 

[kaiowas]

Eh, be fair kaiowas. He's going to win a few more before he's done!

Yeah I know, just heard them mention after the GP that it was his tenth win and was surprised at how few races he has actually won compared to the adulation he gets. Can't be many drivers who won a world championship with a total of 9 or fewer wins to their name.

 

[stockhausen]

Yeah ridiculous, why penalise them for knowingly sending a dangerous car out on to a race track? How utterly bizarre.

Were the other incidences like that though?

Are you suggesting that someone should only ever be penalised for breaking a safety rule if someone else has been penalised previously? How does that work exactly

 

[Glaucus]

Are you suggesting that someone should only ever be penalised for breaking a safety rule if someone else has been penalised previously? How does that work exactly

yes, unless the FIA clarify it.
Don't you think it is ridiculous that the FIA pull rules out that they haven't enforced before with no warning. (that might not be the case here due to the wheel aeros being a give away). It sets a president and this is why so many of us are annoyed with the FIA. They are not consistent both with incidents and what the punishment received is.

 

[JRS]

Can't be many drivers who won a world championship with a total of 9 or fewer wins to their name.

Probably not in the modern era, no. Villeneuve won in '97 with only 11 wins to his name, Schumacher only had 10 when he took his first title, Mika can only have had about 9 or 10 when he won in '98.

***edit***

Oops, forgot about Alonso. He only had 7 or 8 to his name when he took the '05 title.

 

[sunama]

Clarified that for you

He's [Massa's] got 11 wins to his name in F1. He only just came up short in the title race last year despite racing against Lewis "10 wins" Hamilton

Thats a very interesting statistic there. I thought Hamilton had more wins. I guess this was because it took a while for Hamilton to get his first win in 2007, even though he was scoring so many points and leading the title race.

In fairness though, Massa has been racing for longer.

What is more exciting is just how Kimi would respond to having Alonso racing with him. We saw that Alonso and Hamilton are equally matched (finishing 1 point apart, in 2007), but how will Alonso compare with Kimi. I would love it if Alonso moved to Ferrari this season...I want to see Kimi under serious pressure.

 

[Skeeter]

Jeese AcidHell, can you stop missing the point and read for a second. The ban is nothing to do with the wheel nut comming off. The ban is because Renault knew the car was unsafe before it left the pit box, yet let it go, they knew that while going down the pitlane it was unsafe, yet let it go, they knew when it joined the track the wheel was unsafe but made no attempt to even tell the driver, and that they let Alonso carry on around the whole lap thinking it was a puncture.

If Renault had jumped on the radio when Alsonso was goign down the pits, or even at any point before the wheel came off, and just said "the wheel nut isnt on properly, be carefull, bring it back and we will fix it" they would have been fine. But the stewards have reviewed the radio communications and no such communication happened. They knowingly let a dangerous car onto the track, and concously made no effort to prevent it joining the track, or inform their driver of the danger. Its that lack of communication that got them the ban, not the fact the car broke.

The reason why we havent seen this before is because I doubt any team have ever been this stupid before.

 

[stockhausen]

Jeese AcidHell, can you stop missing the point and read for a second ...

 

[Glaucus]

the incident is similar to previous ones. but maybe different to the aero.

yes, unless the FIA clarify it.
Don't you think it is ridiculous that the FIA pull rules out that they haven't enforced before with no warning. (that might not be the case here due to the wheel aeros being a give away). It sets a president and this is why so many of us are annoyed with the FIA. They are not consistent both with incidents and what the punishment received is.

 

[Skeeter]

the incident is similar to previous ones. but maybe different to the aero.

Show me another situation where a team has knowingly sent a dangerous car out onto track and made no attempt to prevent it leaving the pit or even inform the driver of the risk....

I do fully agree that the stewards are horribly inconsistant and that while a punishment in my opinion was valid, a race ban was to harsh. A hefty fine and some grid penalty for the next race would do.

 

[Glaucus]

Show me another situation where a team has knowingly sent a dangerous car out onto track and made no attempt to prevent it leaving the track or even inform the driver of the risk....

Well if you didn't notice that's what I asked about a few posts ago. If this situation was different to many other similar incedients. To which the reply seemed to be yes, due to the aero being a give away.

However I can't remember the exact surroundings on previous lose nuts, as they were non incidents apart from being embarrassing and it would be interesting to see a comparison between them.

 

[clv101]

Jeese AcidHell, can you stop missing the point and read for a second. The ban is nothing to do with the wheel nut comming off. The ban is because Renault knew the car was unsafe before it left the pit box, yet let it go, they knew that while going down the pitlane it was unsafe, yet let it go, they knew when it joined the track the wheel was unsafe but made no attempt to even tell the driver, and that they let Alonso carry on around the whole lap thinking it was a puncture.

If Renault had jumped on the radio when Alsonso was goign down the pits, or even at any point before the wheel came off, and just said "the wheel nut isnt on properly, be carefull, bring it back and we will fix it" they would have been fine. But the stewards have reviewed the radio communications and no such communication happened. They knowingly let a dangerous car onto the track, and concously made no effort to prevent it joining the track, or inform their driver of the danger. Its that lack of communication that got them the ban, not the fact the car broke.

The reason why we havent seen this before is because I doubt any team have ever been this stupid before.

That's exactly my understanding too. Though had it not been for the Surtees and Massa incidents before hand I don't think the team would have received the race suspension. With the appeal I wouldn't be surprised if this was reduced to some other form of penalty that still enabled them to race.

 

[Lopéz]

Mansell lost a wheel coming out of the pits at Estoril (I think?) in 1991 and was disqualified because they repaired the car in the pit lane.

 

[Lopéz]

JThe ban is because Renault knew the car was unsafe before it left the pit box, yet let it go, they knew that while going down the pitlane it was unsafe, yet let it go, they knew when it joined the track the wheel was unsafe but made no attempt to even tell the driver, and that they let Alonso carry on around the whole lap thinking it was a puncture.

The last part I agree with, they should have told him when it was obvious there was an issue - but surely in the pits the lollipop man released the driver without realising the wheel was fully fastened, by that time the driver is well out of his pit box so even if the wheel guy runs(above the noise etc) straight over to the guys on the pit wall to inform them of the problem, then by that time Alonso would be pretty much out of the pitlane already?