HUNGARORING - BUDAPEST - HUNGARY Grand Prix 2009 - Race 10/17

JRS · 24 Jul 2009 at 23:00

Yes sunama, but what you're getting at the moment is this:

Car1 has KERS.
Car2 doesn't.
Car1 is fat with fuel.
Car2 needs to get by.
Car2 can't get by because Car1 is able to frustrate it with the KERS button.
Car2 would have been able to get by if Car1 didn't have KERS.

It's an unfortunate side-effect, but a very real one nonetheless.

sunama said:
Personally, I would much rather be driving in a KERS car

So far for this season you initially proclaimed Button to be a no-hoper who was dead and buried. He's now leading the championship. You proclaimed that RBR would struggle just because their car was out slightly late. They're now winning races. Just on that basis you're 0 for 2, so I think your preference for KERS might be viewed with a bit of skepticism....

Kenai · 24 Jul 2009 at 23:04

JRS said:
So far for this season you initially proclaimed Button to be a no-hoper who was dead and buried. He's now leading the championship. You proclaimed that RBR would struggle just because their car was out slightly late. They're now winning races. Just on that basis you're 0 for 2, so I think your preference for KERS might be viewed with a bit of skepticism....

...hang on, is this the same guy who also proclaimed no one would beat Brawn on a dry track all season?

JRS · 24 Jul 2009 at 23:10

Kenai said:
...hang on, is this the same guy who also proclaimed no one would beat Brawn on a dry track all season?

To be honest Kenai, I've lost track now. I would go back and quote every single....questionable prophecy he's come up with, but I've posted enough stupid stuff on here to know that isn't a good idea

Sparky · 24 Jul 2009 at 23:31

Im still waiting for him to eat a hat.

Glaucus · 25 Jul 2009 at 03:46

sunama said:
I dont understand why so many berate KERS. I think its a fantastic device that can really shake up the field and at least gives some variation to the teams' designers. Otherwise, we would have 20 odd cars, all near identical in performance and shape, all producing lap times within a whisker of eachother.

.

Unfortunately it doesn't do that,. They can't design any of it. They are limited by power, they are limited by time used. If everyone used it. It would be no different than everyone not using it.

However if they said you could have x-weight or x-jules of energy storage. Aftert hat it's upto them how much power you achieve or how many seconds you get. I would agree with you. But like everything in modern F1 there's no design in it. You might as well make it a standard unit for all teams or remove it.

sunama · 25 Jul 2009 at 08:48

JRS said:
Yes sunama, but what you're getting at the moment is this:

Car1 has KERS.
Car2 doesn't.
Car1 is fat with fuel.
Car2 needs to get by.
Car2 can't get by because Car1 is able to frustrate it with the KERS button.
Car2 would have been able to get by if Car1 didn't have KERS.

It's an unfortunate side-effect, but a very real one nonetheless.

Right now, this is true. The 2 big teams with KERS - Ferrari and McLaren - have struggled for basic speed. However, now that both teams are improving, they could use KERS during the race, to overtake, as I described in my previous thread. Remember, KERS is brand spanking new in F1 and it takes a little time to learn how to get the best out of it. If Hamilton can get a good car under him, I'm sure we will see him use KERS for attack, rather than defence.

JRS said:
So far for this season you initially proclaimed Button to be a no-hoper who was dead and buried. He's now leading the championship. You proclaimed that RBR would struggle just because their car was out slightly late. They're now winning races. Just on that basis you're 0 for 2, so I think your preference for KERS might be viewed with a bit of skepticism....

This season, the previous patterns of performance have also been thrown out of the window. Never before have we seen a car from near the back of the grid in one year, go straight to the front of the grid, the following year. I've not seen this ever happen.

Similarly, the trend is that the cars which are released early, put on the most test miles and go on to do well during the season. I felt that testing would be even more important this season due to the testing ban, which would kick in later on. This didnt happen. BMW were the big testers and have fallen apart as the season progressed. Conversely, RedBull who released their car late, are doing well and may now have the best car in F1 (although that remains to be seen).

This season has certainly gone against patterns set in previous seasons, but I dont expect it to last. Statistically, this year is an anomally and normal service should be resumed in upcoming seasons, where the big testers perform well during the season and teams at the back of the grid dont go to the front of the grid, the following season.

JRS · 25 Jul 2009 at 09:28

sunama said:
This season, the previous patterns of performance have also been thrown out of the window. Never before have we seen a car from near the back of the grid in one year, go straight to the front of the grid, the following year. I've not seen this ever happen.

Although not quite as dramatic as Brawn's turnaround, Ferrari did do something similar from '69 to '70. They got just 7 points in '69, spending their time restructuring and creating an all-new car for next year (sound familar?). In 1970 they were challenging for the titles.

We are seeing a major shake-up this year, but will it last? Ferrari always come back, which is why I keep telling the folks on here delighting in their current struggles to enjoy it while it lasts. McLaren have fallen back and come to the fore many times in their history, so they'll be back. Williams seem to still have what it takes to get back to the front if they can just get it all together. Renault.....well, they might leave the sport for a while again but they'll probably come back fighting if they did do that.

utajoker · 25 Jul 2009 at 09:47

did anyone notice what a horrible time massa was having yesterday in both practices, think there was 1 or 2 corners he could not get working and was really struggling.

utajoker · 25 Jul 2009 at 10:01

3rd practice just started

that pit straight is a long long way to the first corner, surely all the kers cars are gonna make up loads of places providng they dont collide with anyone, the distance hamilton made up last race was in a lot shorter distance.

Stormrider · 25 Jul 2009 at 10:07

utajoker said:
3rd practice just started

that pit straight is a long long way to the first corner, surely all the kers cars are gonna make up loads of places providng they dont collide with anyone, the distance hamilton made up last race was in a lot shorter distance.

as they are commenting on at the moment is the McLaren problem - whatever you fuel you are going to lose out at the front, so just fuel for a normal stint and hope to catch them on the pit stops.

Mr Jack · 25 Jul 2009 at 10:40

Wow, good showing from Alguersuari! 40 minutes in, and the new boy is 3rd in Saturday practice. Don't suppose it will last, but still - good show.

Stormrider · 25 Jul 2009 at 10:43

oops Sutil has binned it

utajoker · 25 Jul 2009 at 11:02

hamilton nearly gets into he 1.20s

button down in 17th

Mr Jack · 25 Jul 2009 at 11:05

Hamilton top again, and the Red Bulls and the Brawns nowhere.

Still, practice is rarely a good guide, but Quali should be interesting...

Bennah · 25 Jul 2009 at 11:06

How are the Ferrari's going?

Stormrider · 25 Jul 2009 at 11:06

Commentators believe that the Brawns were concentrating on Q3 running with fuel. Just have to wait and see what happens in 2 hrs

Glaucus · 25 Jul 2009 at 11:34

sunama · 25 Jul 2009 at 12:02

JRS said:
Although not quite as dramatic as Brawn's turnaround, Ferrari did do something similar from '69 to '70. They got just 7 points in '69, spending their time restructuring and creating an all-new car for next year (sound familar?). In 1970 they were challenging for the titles.

Awww come on JRS, you are going back 40 years. I wasnt even born, let alone watching F1.

Though the fact that you have had to go back 40 years to see something similar shows just how rare the turnaround for BrawnGP was. The probability of it happening was very very low.

JRS said:
...comebacks...

Indeed, it is quite likely that big spending teams will rise back up to the top, especially when you consider that teams like McLaren and Ferrari will boast 2 of the best drivers in F1 (Hamilton and quite possibly, Alonso). The jury's out on Williams - their budget is too small now and they have a tendency to lose their best personnel to rival teams with larger budgets.

I must say that I am impressed with the RedBull team. They have gradually turned the screws, which IMO is the right way to do things. I can't help feel though, that their 2 drivers are going to take points off of eachother, leaving Button to win the title.

sunama · 25 Jul 2009 at 12:05

Great to see Hamilton in a car that is capable of going for top spot, again. If he can qualify high up, we might even see KERS being used to attack, rather than defend tomorrow.

JRS · 25 Jul 2009 at 12:09

sunama said:
Awww come on JRS, you are going back 40 years. I wasnt even born, let alone watching F1.

Though the fact that you have had to go back 40 years to see something similar shows just how rare the turnaround for BrawnGP was. The probability of it happening was very very low.

"Very very low" and "utterly impossible" aren't the same thing, as this season has manage to prove even to you.

sunama said:
I must say that I am impressed with the RedBull team. They have gradually turned the screws, which IMO is the right way to do things.

You know, I saw a delicious looking hat in a shop the other day....