International Men's Day!

[Hades]

And as said, the reason is heavily affected by choice of method. That is not a cause to have gender specific treatments, but it could be used to restrict access to guns, to put fencing and security on bridges for example.
A local bridge near me has some good Samaritans set up in a warmed tent in the middle of the bridge over the festive season. It used to be there would 2-3 suicides, predominantly by men, each year. Now that number is essentially zero .

Programs like that can reduce gender differences in suicide outcomes, if that was your primary focus. The real solution is to treat mental health at the cause, which requires much higher investments

You are completely right. We should not try to understand why so many more men die. In fact we shouldn't even bother recording the gender at all in the figures. What were people thinking when they started recording this pointless statistic.




** This is sarcasm.

 

[D.P.]

It's interesting that you think my concern to understand the cause is an extremely dangerous attitude.

Yes of course the method is a huge factor in the disparity. But have you thought about why men and women choose different methods? Is it because men are more serious about ending things? Is it because they already tried unsuccessfully using a less "successful" method and then escalated to a more deadly approach? Is it because the final urge to end things happens at a time when only those more deadly methods are immediately available to them? E.g. a final trigger happens and they immediately act to end things by jumping off a building or in front of a train.

Not looking further into why men choose the more deadly approach is the dangerous attitude. Wanting to understand more than just the method chosen is not the dangerous attitude.

No, professionals have researched this a lot and there are many factors but a big factor is nothing more than choice of method, that can be impacted gender differences (e.g. in the US generally men have more access to guns). There are impacts of intention on the method as well, but these factors are smaller and ignores that gravity of anyone attempting suicide regardless of gender

 

[D.P.]

You are completely right. We should not try to understand why so many more men die. In fact we shouldn't even bother recording the gender at all in the figures. What were people thinking when they started recording this pointless statistic.




** This is sarcasm.

ehh, we already have a good understanding why there are differences. There are lots of existing and ongoing studies.

Do you rather reduce only male suicides, or reduce all suicides regardless of gender?

 

[dlockers]

Do you rather reduce only male suicides

Just increase female suicides innit

 

[Hades]

ehh, we already have a good understanding why there are differences. There are lots of existing and ongoing studies.

Do you rather reduce only male suicides, or reduce all suicides regardless of gender?

Are you saying that we have all the answers and further research is pointless?

 

[Hades]

No, professionals have researched this a lot and there are many factors but a big factor is nothing more than choice of method, that can be impacted gender differences (e.g. in the US generally men have more access to guns). There are impacts of intention on the method as well, but these factors are smaller and ignores that gravity of anyone attempting suicide regardless of gender

Why do men choose those methods?

 

[Freakbro]

Why do men choose those methods?

It's obviously a complex issue, but it seems partly because men tend to not ask for help in the first place, more likely to self medicate with drugs and alcohol, they end up in a worse mental state by the time they make the attempt and tend to choose more violent methods.

I had a Google when reading your exchange, as I found it an interesting point, as I didn't know that globally women attempt more suicides but males succeed 3 times more.

There have been a lot of studies into this, and this seems a good article explaining it.

Why more men than women die by suicide

In countries around the world, women are more likely to be diagnosed with depression and to attempt suicide. So why is the male suicide rate still several times higher than female?

www.bbc.com

 

[Hades]

It's obviously a complex issue, but it seems partly because men tend to not ask for help in the first place, more likely to self medicate with drugs and alcohol, they end up in a worse mental state by the time they make the attempt and tend to choose more violent methods.

Thank you. This is the point I was trying to make to DP. Just simply saying the method is the reason for the disparity isn't the answer. There must be a reason why different methods are chosen.

To truly get to the root cause of a problem we need to keep asking "why?" whenever we think we have reached a conclusion.

E.g. Men use more lethal methods.
Why?
Because men ask for less help.
Why?
Etc, etc.

 

[D.P.]

Why do men choose those methods?

access to guns is a big one in many countries. In many cases it can just be societal, for example why to women wear skirts more frequently than men?

Intention based difference are also well studied. For example, many women are suicidal and truly want to take their life, but they also tend to have more responsibilities in families and to think of their children for example.

 

[D.P.]

it.

Why more men than women die by suicide

In countries around the world, women are more likely to be diagnosed with depression and to attempt suicide. So why is the male suicide rate still several times higher than female?

www.bbc.com

Yep, as i said. Access to guns for example is a huge factor in many countries

Access to means is a big contributing factor: in the US for example, six-in-10 gun owners are men – and firearms account for more than half of suicides

and another big factor

There tends to be more substance use and alcohol use among males, which may just reflect the distress they're feeling – but we know it compounds the issue of suicide," says Harkavy-Friedman.

Indeed, men are nearly twice as likely as women to meet criteria for alcohol dependence. But drinking can deepen depression and increase impulsive behaviours and alcoholism is a known risk factor for suicide.

 

[D.P.]

Are you saying that we have all the answers and further research is pointless?

No, where did i say that?

You just seemed to think there is some huge conspiracy that ignores mens suicides all the while you are trying to ignore women's suicide rates.

What gender specific research do you think is missing?

 

[adolf hamster]

You just seemed to think there is some huge conspiracy that ignores mens suicides all the while you are trying to ignore women's suicide rates.

This is a thread about mens mental health, read the room

 

[Hades]

access to guns is a big one in many countries. In many cases it can just be societal, for example why to women wear skirts more frequently than men?

Intention based difference are also well studied. For example, many women are suicidal and truly want to take their life, but they also tend to have more responsibilities in families and to think of their children for example.

Access to guns can't explain the differential in the UK.

People feeling suicidal but not following through with it due to responsibilities isn't included in the attempted suicide figures. It doesn't contribute to the differential.

Societal pressures are very likely to be a factor which comes back to my point about needing more study to understand why more men die through suicide.

 

[Hades]

You just seemed to think there is some huge conspiracy that ignores mens suicides all the while you are trying to ignore women's suicide rates.

That's a silly thing to suggest and pulled out of nowhere.

We clearly are going round in circles here, which is fine because everyone is entitled to their own opinion. We clearly won't see eye to eye on this one, which is also fine. But it's daft to try to blame a conspiracy theory. Using the quite predictable deflection that I must be ignoring womens suicide rates is laughable as I have never said any such thing or given any indication of such. This is a thread about men after all. So rather than derail the thread I will bow out of this discussion between us.

I feel strongly that we need as much research into causes as possible, looking at avenues to reduce suicides. That's especially the case because of a very close male friend and a close male family member both unsuccessfully attempted suicide. As for disregarding womens suicide I have in the past managed to talk a female friend out of attempting it. While it appears to me that you are happy to assume the cause is simply the choice of method and you seem to be OK to leave it at that.

I wish you good evening sir

 

[GGizmo]

you are looking at deaths by suicide, not suicide attempts. Men in the UK tend to jump off buildings and bridges, women overdose or slit their wrist but they don't effectively overdose or are found and are rescued. There are other reasons as well and the differences are well studied


The point is, there is no specific acute suicide risk for men related to differences in mental health or access to care.

I hear you.

I'm just abit puzzled as to why on a men's thread you feel the need to bring women in to the conversation.

If we had a women's day thread and posts were made about their struggles would you post male stats saying the women don't have it so bad?

I'm not having a go. I'm just puzzled by this reaction, that we also saw on the bbc, that as soon as men are talked about it's immediately belittled and swept aside.

Is it that some men feel embarrassed to have the spotlight on us and immediately default to talking about women?

 

[dlockers]

I hear you.

I'm just abit puzzled as to why on a men's thread you feel the need to bring women in to the conversation.

If we had a women's day thread and posts were made about their struggles would you post male stats saying the women don't have it so bad?

I'm not having a go. I'm just puzzled by this reaction, that we also saw on the bbc, that as soon as men are talked about it's immediately belittled and swept aside.

Is it that some men feel embarrassed to have the spotlight on us and immediately default to talking about women?

Lol what?!?! Didn't you give me grief for making the same comment?

Edit: LOL you were the person I commented about.

 

[Richie]

more women attempt suicide than men.

The differences in suicide rate have a lot less to do with actual mental health issue incident rates but methods.

It could be argued that men are commited to suicide whereas women use it as a cry for help and don't have an overwhelming desire to actually die.

The point is, there is no specific acute suicide risk for men related to differences in mental health or access to care.

How about job roles? Farming for instance is predominantly male and is amongst the very highest in suicide rates due to mental health...

I can't speak for Dlockers, but I'm simply using the scientific consensus of gender on suicide and mental health with the recognized solution that more investment has to be made for all mental health matters regardless of gender.

See point above - some job roles have disproportionate levels of suicide. Perhaps we can put more investment into these areas?

incidentally, these roles are predominantly done by men.

No, professionals have researched this a lot and there are many factors but a big factor is nothing more than choice of method, that can be impacted gender differences (e.g. in the US generally men have more access to guns).

You've brought guns up a few times in this thread... Does this explain the hugely disproportionate amount of men that commit suicide in the UK?

Do you rather reduce only male suicides, or reduce all suicides regardless of gender?

I'd rather reduce them all but can we stay away from whataboutism in a thread talking about International Mens Day? (The whataboutism being women)


Seriously, the very fact that a discussion surrounding International Mens Day cannot be had without the "well what about the women... They got problems too!!" comments is simply astounding.

I'll see all you guys for International Women's Day when we can bring up men's issues like Prostate Cancer as a discussion point on Cervical Cancer or how men have higher rates of assault during a domestic violence discussion

 

[dlockers]

Seriously, the very fact that a discussion surrounding International Mens Day cannot be had without the "well what about the women... They got problems too!!" comments is simply astounding.

Are you guys having a stroke?

You literally wrote some of your most deep reaching prose at me when I said the same thing

 

[Richie]

Are you guys having a stroke?

You literally wrote some of your most deep reaching prose at me when I said the same thing

I did? You're going to have to point me to that one TBH (genuine)

 

[Richie]

I'm guessing by the standard laughing response, I won't get a proper answer?

I was being genuine... I can't remember every single thing I have written on this forum so happy to be reminded.