International Men's Day!

[dlockers]

Is this a real post or is this a fantastic bit of satire because I genuinely don't know if I should be laughing along or at you?

Careful, laughing at posts that rely on the fallacy of comparison against women is frowned upon and the pile on happens.

 

[D.P.]

Well I'd argue removing these roles from men is the driving of male suicide. 'toxic masculinity' isn't something that men are convinced to be like, but something that exists. So when you forcefully remove it, you create uselessness.

When men exist in traditional relationships, i.e breadwinner, long lasting marriage, children in the household. The suicide rates significantly drop.

So is masculinity the cause or the removal of it?

You can argue all you want but your opinions are not backed by the scientific consensus.

Societal view on masculinity, emphasing "being strong", being the breadwinner, not showing emotions, focus ob finances instead of family etc are all contributing to men not communicating and sharing their emotional difficulties.

Masculinities, emotions and men's suicide - PubMed

Men account for approximately 75% of the one million annual suicide deaths worldwide. Emerging research indicates a link between suicide and men's active pursuit of hegemonic masculinity via emotional restriction. However, little is known of the continuum of suicidal men's emotional practice...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Men account for approximately 75% of the one million annual suicide deaths worldwide. Emerging research indicates a link between suicide and men's active pursuit of hegemonic masculinity via emotional restriction. However, little is known of the continuum of suicidal men's emotional practice, and particularly how men mobilise emotions to actively pursue or resist hegemonic masculine ideals. This theorised life-history study aimed to explore the emotional lives of 18 Australian men who had attempted suicide. Findings indicate that men in this study experienced a range of emotions. However, during childhood, they learned that expressing emotions such as sadness reduced masculine standing, whereas expressing emotions such as anger through acts of violence could enhance masculine status. Although the gendering of emotions offered participants multiple avenues of action to pursue or contest masculine ideals, they remained vulnerable to suicide. For some men, it became impossible to conceal escalating feelings of distress. For other men, displays of anger and violence resulted in job loss, relationship breakdown or criminal conviction. Many participants indicated that suicide presented a means of ending painful emotions. Paradoxically, suicide could also become an alternative means of demonstrating masculinity, whereby the body became both the vehicle and object of violence.

Expressions of masculinity and associations with suicidal ideation among young males - BMC Psychiatry

Background Adolescent boys and young men are at particular risk of suicide. Suicidal ideation is an important risk factor for suicide, but is poorly understood among adolescent males. Some masculine behaviors have been associated with deleterious effects on health, yet there has been little...

bmcpsychiatry.biomedcentral.com

These results suggest that conforming to some masculine norms may be deleterious to the mental health of young males, placing them at greater risk of suicidal ideation. The results highlight the importance of presenting young males with alternative and multiple ways of being a male. Facilitating a relaxation of norms regarding self-reliance, and encouraging help-seeking, is vital. Furthermore, dismantling norms that rigidly enforce masculine norms, particularly in relation to heteronormativity, is likely to benefit the broad population of males, not only those who do not conform to heterosexual and other masculine norms.

Traditional Assumptions of Masculinity Said to Be Linked to Depression in Men

Traditional notions of masculinity can prevent some men from seeking help for psychiatric illnesses, resulting in untreated depression and suicidality.

psychnews.psychiatryonline.org

Traditional notions of masculinity can prevent some men from seeking help for psychiatric illnesses, resulting in untreated depression and suicidality. ...

Men with high traditional masculinity were 2.4 times more likely to die by suicide and 1.45 times less likely to report suicidal ideation than men who did not have high measures of traditional masculinity

World Suicide Prevention Day 2021 - The toxicity in toxic masculinity

Toxic masculinity is the result of decades, perhaps centuries, of society teaching boys that they can’t and shouldn’t express emotion openly.

insights.omnia-health.com

The toxicity in toxic masculinity
Toxic masculinity, is, unfortunately, a term we’ve all come across. The concept has been around for a while, but now it is discussed pretty much everywhere. And for good reason.

Toxic masculinity is essentially a ‘macho’ and ‘red-blooded’ culture where men are expected to be tough and carry typical ‘masculine’ characteristics. Researchers defined toxic masculinity by behaviours and beliefs in part as:

• Suppressing emotions or masking distress

• Maintaining an appearance of toughness

• Violence as an indicator of power (e.g., tough-guy behaviour)

In simple terms, toxic masculinity is the result of decades, perhaps centuries, of society teaching boys that they can’t and shouldn’t express emotion openly and that if they do, then they are weak and ‘feminine’. These boys then internalise these feelings and grow into men who have been taught that they can’t be anything less than ‘masculine’.

According to the American Psychological Association, these norms integrated into our culture has been linked to aggression and violence, resulting in men at “disproportionate risk for school discipline, academic challenges, and health disparities,” including cardiovascular problems, substance abuse, and suicide.

As well as toxic masculinity, there is also a massive stigma around mental health that is in the process of being deconstructed. Due to mass conversation on social media around the world, more and more of us are understanding the importance of mental health and being able to open up, although there is a long way to go. So, let’s do the same with toxic masculinity.

Toxic masculinity is a barrier to mental health treatment
Sadly, men who have internalised traditional views of masculinity are not only less likely to go to see their doctor, but they are also less likely to be honest about their health history and symptoms

Promoting Healthier Masculinities as a Suicide Prevention Intervention in a Regional Australian Community: A Qualitative Study of Stakeholder Perspectives

Regionally-based Australian men have a higher risk of suicide than those in urban centers, with similar trends observed internationally. Adopting a place-based approach to understanding men’s suicide and harm prevention provides contextual insights to guide localised opportunities for the...

www.frontiersin.org

Men in rural Australia are typically portrayed as embodying idealized masculinity–dominant and tough, upholding strength and stoicism in the face of hardship. Such values can increase suicide risk in men by reducing help-seeking

 

[Richie]

Wait this was a thing, didn't even realise, no mention of it anywhere in the news or at least it wasn't prominent enough to notice.

It certainly pays to talk, I was very much an if it ain't broke and hanging off, deal with it yourself kind of person...

As do a lot of men but thats how society expects men to be - Society doesnt want men to be weak (physically, psychologically or emotionally). They need, and arguably expect them to be tough, resilient, capable, dependable, etc just for everyday infrastructure to work.

I have no issue with that but when you get the same society pushing these expectations on a certain cohort and then shouting that these same values result in "toxic masculinity", its a little silly and not really fair.


TBH - I was a little hesitant whether to post the above or not as I am certain some people will take it the wrong way and start the "Red Pill" nonsense thats floating around.

 

[dlockers]

As do a lot of men but thats how society expects men to be - Society doesnt want men to be weak (physically, psychologically or emotionally). They need, and arguably expect them to be tough, resilient, capable, dependable, etc just for everyday infrastructure to work.

I have no issue with that but when you get the same society pushing these expectations on a certain cohort and then shouting that these same values result in "toxic masculinity", its a little silly and not really fair.


TBH - I was a little hesitant whether to post the above or not as I am certain some people will take it the wrong way and start the "Red Pill" nonsense thats floating around.

If your final point is towards me, it's misdirected. The red pill nonsense is when the comparison with women comes into it. Look at the chap suggesting men should get free gym membership bEcAuSe wOmEn gEt fReE sTuFf.

Talking about how society piles pressure on men and men aspire to reach those pressures is a well balanced and reasonable perspective.

 

[Richie]

Societal view on masculinity, emphasing "being strong", being the breadwinner, not showing emotions, focus ob finances instead of family etc are all contributing to men not communicating and sharing their emotional difficulties.

Toxic masculinity is essentially a ‘macho’ and ‘red-blooded’ culture where men are expected to be tough and carry typical ‘masculine’ characteristics. Researchers defined toxic masculinity by behaviours and beliefs in part as:

• Suppressing emotions or masking distress

• Maintaining an appearance of toughness

• Violence as an indicator of power (e.g., tough-guy behaviour)

And this is whats confusing... The very first sentence in the quote you quoted (bolded for reference) has conflated "typical masculine characteristics" as being "toxic masculinity"

Its almost inferring that all masculine traits are toxic... Do you agree with that inference?

Do we really want men to not suppress emotions or distress.... Frontline soldiers for example? Are they "toxic" for masking fear in a warzone or firefight or are they just showing masculine traits?

 

[D.P.]

And this is whats confusing... The very first sentence in the quote you quoted (bolded for reference) has conflated "typical masculine characteristics" as being "toxic masculinity"

It is conflating - some traditonal masculine characteristics are toxic and some of these traits lead to male suicide

Its almost inferring that all masculine traits are toxic... Do you agree with that inference?

No,. because it doesn;t say that at all. The atticle merely pints out that some traditional masculine traits are toxic and not only towards women and but are a risk factor for suicde.

Do we really want men to not suppress emotions or distress....

Yees, abolutely, this the whole point that men need to be open with their emotions.

Frontline soldiers for example?

What about women soldiers?

Are they "toxic" for masking fear in a warzone or firefight or are they just showing masculine traits?

Ever heard of post-traumatic stress in soldiers?

 

[D.P.]

As do a lot of men but thats how society expects men to be - Society doesnt want men to be weak (physically, psychologically or emotionally). They need, and arguably expect them to be tough, resilient, capable, dependable, etc just for everyday infrastructure to work.

I have no issue with that but when you get the same society pushing these expectations on a certain cohort and then shouting that these same values result in "toxic masculinity", its a little silly and not really fair.


TBH - I was a little hesitant whether to post the above or not as I am certain some people will take it the wrong way and start the "Red Pill" nonsense thats floating around.

No see this is the whole point. Some men are trying to make society view masculine traits as important. That is very dangerous.

It is perfeclty healthy for a male to show emotions, to have times of weaness where they need to seak help, admit they are not capable of something and need support.

 

[Richie]

If your final point is towards me, it's misdirected.

It wasn't directed at you at all. It was a general point - Discussions around this have had attempts to be shut down before by throwing the whole "red pill bro" nonsene around.... Funnily enough, its normally due to the person throwing it around not actually being able to rationally debate a point.

The red pill nonsense is when the comparison with women comes into it. Look at the chap suggesting men should get free gym membership bEcAuSe wOmEn gEt fReE sTuFf.

Yeah, that was nonsense hence I just ignored it. The guy may or may not have a valid POV in this discussion but saying daft things like that just mean people wont take any actual intelligent debate or points from them seriously.

TBF though, its akin to the overuse of laughing emoji reactions because you disagree with something rather than actually posting a proper response (this one IS directed at you )

Talking about how society piles pressure on men and men aspire to reach those pressures is a well balanced and reasonable perspective.

I was half writing something to this comment but then I realised we may be talking about different things - what specific pressures are you referring to here?

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

And this is whats confusing... The very first sentence in the quote you quoted (bolded for reference) has conflated "typical masculine characteristics" as being "toxic masculinity"

Its almost inferring that all masculine traits are toxic... Do you agree with that inference?

Do we really want men to not suppress emotions or distress.... Frontline soldiers for example? Are they "toxic" for masking fear in a warzone or firefight or are they just showing masculine traits?

I think you are ignoring the key word. Expected.
Not everyone wants to spend all their time demonstrating full red blooded masculinity at all times.

Its the expected bit thats the toxic part.

 

[D.P.]

For the dumb people like me... Run me through in detail how the post you were replying do is a "clear example of toxic masculinity".

I'm somewhat concerned that you ca';t see the post wreaking of toxic masculinity and his attitudes are one of the driving forces of male suicide.
: this is hte post in question

No we don't. What we need to do is stop suppressing men which starts from a very young age. Men in life need to compete in an equal playing field and to be rewarded and recognised for their incredible achievements. The benefits of that to any society are beyond measure. Masculinity is the greatest force this planet has witnessed. Men build this world and all the comforts and safety nets that everyone enjoys. Men are simply awesome.

Edit: About time we give every male a free gym membership covered by the taxpayer. Women get tons of free stuff and working out provides an endless amount of benefits to men both physically and mentally.

a

The whole post is utterly ridiculous.. No one is suppressing men, but suppressing toxic masculinity absolutely needs to be prioritised. "Masculinity is the greatest force this planet has witnessed." - it is hard to read stuff like this and not think the person is a troll. Misogynistic beyond measure, and utterly deluded.

"Men are simply awesome." so profound. Women are also simply awesome. So actually the human race is awesome and has archived so much, but humans have also caused so much suffering and death.

Then this stuff about gym membership and a weird notion that women get something for free, the jealousy is just incredible. I mean, promoting sports and leasuire activities for everyone regardless of gender is a great idea, so why does this poster want to limit this to men and why only a gym membership?

 

[throwaway4372]

Should not lock the thread because that's giving the trolls what they want.
Coincidentally the people trolling this thread are ignored by me already, they must have a track record, probably time to ban them.

 

[uber soldat]

If you do leg day you're not a real man, everybody knows that right?

 

[D.P.]

I think you are ignoring the key word. Expected.
Not everyone wants to spend all their time demonstrating full red blooded masculinity at all times.

Its the expected bit thats the toxic part.

Indeed, if the man is "expected" to be a breadwinner then the financial stress lands squarely on him. This is not only an extremely negative trait for society in general as it is entirely dismissive of women, but directly leads to increased risks of male suicide.

If both parents/genders are considered equally to be breadwinners, and society provides enough protections and support so financial stress is likely, then we would all be far more productive, poverty would decrease, and there would be less male suicides
.

 

[platinum87]

No see this is the whole point. Some men are trying to make society view masculine traits as important. That is very dangerous.

It is perfeclty healthy for a male to show emotions, to have times of weaness where they need to seak help, admit they are not capable of something and need support.

People confuse masculinity and strength, the two are different.

The whole showing emotions is not a path forward. If you want to be stronger you must work hard at it, if you want bigger muscles lift weights, if you want to run a marathon then go and run in the mornings, etc.

If you want to be strong, you need pain and you need suffering, and you need a lot of it.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

I'm somewhat concerned that you ca';t see the post wreaking of toxic masculinity and his attitudes are one of the driving forces of male suicide.
: this is hte post in question



The whole post is utterly ridiculous.. No one is suppressing men, but suppressing toxic masculinity absolutely needs to be prioritised. "Masculinity is the greatest force this planet has witnessed." - it is hard to read stuff like this and not think the person is a troll. Misogynistic beyond measure, and utterly deluded.

"Men are simply awesome." so profound. Women are also simply awesome. So actually the human race is awesome and has archived so much, but humans have also caused so much suffering and death.

Then this stuff about gym membership and a weird notion that women get something for free, the jealousy is just incredible. I mean, promoting sports and leasuire activities for everyone regardless of gender is a great idea, so why does this poster want to limit this to men and why only a gym membership?

Totally.

Far better to get people interested in far better exercise than the bloody gym. I would even go as far as saying that my experience of gyms is that they come far closer to supporting the same toxic elements in regards masculinity.
My experience is they also for some are also damaging as the pressure is around looking good for some and that brings itself another level of demand.

But we have spent years damaging and eroding the network of council owned sports facilities we had. Thats what we should be reversing.

A good team game of football or even football training would be far better in regards giving men opportunity to partake in sport.
We even have an outside gym where I live now, pull up bars etc, so nice and easy to combine with a jog etc

The reason gyms for many are preferable is they are safe spaces in effect. I mean as in truly a safe space away from potential muggers etc. Easy to be masculine in a safe space

 

[Richie]

It is conflating - some traditonal masculine characteristics are toxic and some of these traits lead to male suicide


No,. because it doesn;t say that at all. The atticle merely pints out that some traditional masculine traits are toxic and not only towards women and but are a risk factor for suicde.

Which traditional masculine traits are toxic specifically?

What about women soldiers?

What about women soldiers?

Ever heard of post-traumatic stress in soldiers?

Of course I have. You've missed my point (my fault) - I specifically mentioned in a warzone or on the front line. Perhaps I should have been clearer - I am referring to frontline soldiers actively on the frontline in an actual battle (I appreciate front line can also mean tucked up in bed on camp, I didn't mean this)

Do we want frontline soldiers engaged in a firefight to mask fear or emotion or let their emotions and fear out?

No see this is the whole point. Some men are trying to make society view masculine traits as important. That is very dangerous.

Why is society viewing masculine traits not important. Are masculine traits not important in society? Strength, protective, resilience.... Is it also dangerous for society to view feminine traits as dangerous?

It is perfeclty healthy for a male to show emotions, to have times of weaness where they need to seak help, admit they are not capable of something and need support.

Agreed... Have I said any different

I'm somewhat concerned that you ca';t see the post wreaking of toxic masculinity and his attitudes are one of the driving forces of male suicide.
: this is hte post in question



The whole post is utterly ridiculous.. No one is suppressing men, but suppressing toxic masculinity absolutely needs to be prioritised. "Masculinity is the greatest force this planet has witnessed." - it is hard to read stuff like this and not think the person is a troll. Misogynistic beyond measure, and utterly deluded.

"Men are simply awesome." so profound. Women are also simply awesome. So actually the human race is awesome and has archived so much, but humans have also caused so much suffering and death.

Then this stuff about gym membership and a weird notion that women get something for free, the jealousy is just incredible. I mean, promoting sports and leasuire activities for everyone regardless of gender is a great idea, so why does this poster want to limit this to men and why only a gym membership?

Oh I do see it so you can allay your concerns

The poster in question likely has some valid discussion points but they are lost in his ramblings and rhetoric.

"Men are awesome" - They are though. I am not sure why you took this the wrong way and sought to rebutt it by bringing women into it. Saying "men are awesome" is not saying "women are not awesome" but you appear to have come to that conclusion.

You're right - Women are also awesome but, in a thread about International MEN'S day, why is it so terrible to single out men and celebrate them and what they have achieved? Doesnt International Women's Day do the very same for women by singling them out and celebrating their achievements? No-one ever throws in whataboutism about men at that time

I think you are ignoring the key word. Expected.
Not everyone wants to spend all their time demonstrating full red blooded masculinity at all times.

Its the expected bit thats the toxic part.

Well I guess we just disagree here... The word "expected" does not mean the same as spending all their time displaying full red blooded masculinity AT ALL TIMES.

Were the men from Ukraine toxic when they were expected to be masculine and remain in their country to fight against Russia?

 

[MikeTheNative]

I think the thread is kind of getting derailed a bit. But I would say gyms are one of the most welcoming places for all.
Any pressure someone feels to look a certain way there, IMO is 99% their own insecurities. From my experience everyone just offers encouragement to everyone else regardless of where they are on their fitness journey. A PB regardless of how big or small is something to be celebrated and I would say the majority of 'gym rats' would say the same thing.

 

[D.P.]

Which traditional masculine traits are toxic specifically?

I am sure you can use google?

What about women soldiers?


Of course I have. You've missed my point (my fault) - I specifically mentioned in a warzone or on the front line. Perhaps I should have been clearer - I am referring to frontline soldiers actively on the frontline in an actual battle (I appreciate front line can also mean tucked up in bed on camp, I didn't mean this)

Do we want frontline soldiers engaged in a firefight to mask fear or emotion or let their emotions and fear out?

This a strange aside you are going down. Front line soldiers need certain traits and need to have control, this applies regardless of wether the soldier is a man or a women. Hiding emotions can be very problematic for soldeirs. Fear can be very useful if properly under control. Do you think women cannot mask emotions and cannot be brave?

 

[Richie]

I am sure you can use google?

Excellent response... :doublethumbsup:

I'll go ahead and answer your question below though shall I?

This a strange aside you are going down. Front line soldiers need certain traits and need to have control, this applies regardless of wether the soldier is a man or a women. Hiding emotions can be very problematic for soldeirs. Fear can be very useful if properly under control. Do you think women cannot mask emotions and cannot be brave?

You seem to do this a lot in your posts here.... Why, when people mention men and direct their query specifically to solely involve men, in a thread ABOUT MEN, you consistently respond with "well what about women" style responses?

But to answer your question - No, I don't think women can't mask emotions or be brave... Can we put the thread discussion back towards MEN now?

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

Well I guess we just disagree here... The word "expected" does not mean the same as spending all their time displaying full red blooded masculinity AT ALL TIMES.

Were the men from Ukraine toxic when they were expected to be masculine and remain in their country to fight against Russia?

Well it didn't really offer a expected sometimes, just expected. Typically when the word expected is used with no qualifier its a permanent thing.

I'm not really sure what your on about with your second statement.
I am not sure whats masculine about that specifically. Typcially men are deemed the first to be called up, not because they are masculine specifically.

The toxicity is again not being masculine, its the making out like only certain ways are masculine.
Eg compare David Beckham to Andrew tate.
Beckham (I mean when he was top news), sporty, fit, great figure, lovely hair "pretty boy looks", great role model etc Advertising boxer shorts, hair products, mens scents. Very much non toxic masculinity.
Tate, sporty, fit, great figure. Not really a looker, no product advertising, grifting. Promotes a very much toxic brand of masculinity.

I bet by a factor of 100:1 women would take the Beckham masculinity over the Tate masculinity.
And this to me is the crux, the toxicity has come pushing that a Beckham type man isn't as masculine as a Tate type, you need to treat them bad, make them realise who is boss etc. If you get my drift.