Is it time to sack Wenger?

Greenlizard0 · 16 May 2010 at 20:13

No1newts said:
I am not arguing the point of their fitness. I am saying that a fit woodgate or a fit king is better than either of the Arsenal pairing. Nor did I argue the toss that woodgate and king would be more useful to a team than V+G. You probably would get more games out of V+G than you would out of W+K making most managers more liable to go for a pairing of V+G

Exactly, which was my original reason as to why I'd have Gallas/Vermaelen in my side. You then over emotionally started to compare ability after I did not.

Also, as said, being fit is a rather important aspect of being a footballer. For example, it'd be like saying Robin van Persie 'when fit', is the most talented striker in the EPL. That's a flawed statement and pointlessly hypothetical.

No1newts said:
My arguement was hypothetical in the sense that comparing both partnerships together if they played together all the time. My other arguement of pure ability, regardless of current form or injury history, is a factual (if opiniated) one based on the players themselves.

My comments about Rio/Terry was just something I put in to highlight the point I was making.

Again the point you made was flawed as was the analogy. Also once again your comparisons and my reasons are different. Why also make the comparison if you already know that King/Woodgate can NOT ever play all the time?

No1newts said:
So in summary mate, ooops

Fail.

No1newts · 16 May 2010 at 20:33

Greenlizard0 said:
Exactly, which was my original reason as to why I'd have Gallas/Vermaelen in my side. You then over emotionally started to compare ability after I did not.

Also, as said, being fit is a rather important aspect of being a footballer. For example, it'd be like saying Robin van Persie 'when fit', is the most talented striker in the EPL. That's a flawed statement and pointlessly hypothetical.

Would you rather have "the most talented striker in the EPL" for half the games in the season or an average one for every game?

An example, RVP played 20, scored 10 and 8 assists this season. Eduardo, played 32, scored 6 and 7 assists.

Personally I would take the best for half the games and if not guarantee a win certainly have a much better chance of winning with him in the team, so no its not a flawed statement or pointlessly hypothetical.

Greenlizard0 said:
Again the point you made was flawed as was the analogy. Also once again your comparisons and my reasons are different. Why also make the comparison if you already know that King/Woodgate can NOT ever play all the time?

Since when has football become entirely factual with no opinions at all? They COULD play all the time, they could be fit all next season. Certainly King has improved his fitness to the extent that he was playing 2 games a week at the end of the season. He doesnt train but neither did Paul McGrath. Woodgate has had a bad injury but he is more than capable of being fully fit again. Then? Then I would much rather have a central defensive pairing of K+W over V+G. Nothing flawed at all their bud.

Greenlizard0 said:
Fail.

Back at you

Yas786 · 16 May 2010 at 20:53

Oh do grow up No1Newts...your a toon fan...that just about says it all...your team isnt good enough for prem football but are too good for championship football....hmmm perhaps you should play in the Scottish Prem...you might end up winning something after all

.

Why you feel the need to criticise other teams namely Arsenal is beyond me lol.

No1newts · 16 May 2010 at 21:13

Spawn said:
Oh do grow up No1Newts...your a toon fan...that just about says it all...your team isnt good enough for prem football but are too good for championship football....hmmm perhaps you should play in the Scottish Prem...you might end up winning something after all.

Nah we would balls it up

We always find some way of doing it.

Spawn said:
Why you feel the need to criticise other teams namely Arsenal is beyond me lol.

Im not criticising Arsenal, if anything Arsenal are my second team for the great football they play. I am just refusing to accept that G+V are better defenders than W+K.

And quit it with toon jibes! That so last year

Greenlizard0 · 16 May 2010 at 22:15

No1newts said:
Would you rather have "the most talented striker in the EPL" for half the games in the season or an average one for every game?

An example, RVP played 20, scored 10 and 8 assists this season. Eduardo, played 32, scored 6 and 7 assists.

Personally I would take the best for half the games and if not guarantee a win certainly have a much better chance of winning with him in the team, so no its not a flawed statement or pointlessly hypothetical.

An utterly laughable notion.

When you challenge for multiple honours you need the consistancy provided by having fit players. As an Arsenal fan there are some in our squad who regularly wander in and out of the side, and it's showed for the last few years.

For example, who is more talented, Drogba or Torres? Torres for sure in my opinion. Who however, would I want in my squad? Easy - Drogba.

Also, this situation isn't like comparing RvP to Eduardo, the difference in ability and experience in English football is huge. It'd be more apt to compare RvP with Anelka for example, at which point I'd rather have the Frenchman (back!).

No1newts said:
Since when has football become entirely factual with no opinions at all? They COULD play all the time, they could be fit all next season. Certainly King has improved his fitness to the extent that he was playing 2 games a week at the end of the season. He doesnt train but neither did Paul McGrath. Woodgate has had a bad injury but he is more than capable of being fully fit again. Then? Then I would much rather have a central defensive pairing of K+W over V+G. Nothing flawed at all their bud.

Back at you

LOL what?

Arsenal could never credibly state an intention to go for as many trophies as possible, by having a first choice CB partnership of King and Woodgate. Look over the last 3 years (after Woodgate arrived at Spurs). Should we require them to do so, I want those two players to approach the 60 game mark if possible. King has played 60 games in 3 years, Woodgate just 64 over the same time period. This is why I want Gallas (114) and Vermaelen (108) over the two Englishmen.

K1LLSW1TCH · 16 May 2010 at 22:40

Some of the hypothetical situations posted here have been absolutely laughable which is why I won't get involved with those per-se. All I will do though is repeat this stat:

Arsenal: Goals For: 83 Goals Against: 41

Spuds: Goals For: 67 Goals Against: 41

Anything else is just reading between the lines. Spurs who were supposedly in possession of the best defenders in the league this season have conceded the same amount of goals as an out of form understrength Arsenal defence, what does that say about Tottenham?

No1newts · 16 May 2010 at 22:43

Greenlizard0 said:
An utterly laughable notion.

When you challenge for multiple honours you need the consistancy provided by having fit players. As an Arsenal fan there are some in our squad who regularly wander in and out of the side, and it's showed for the last few years.

For example, who is more talented, Drogba or Torres? Torres for sure in my opinion. Who however, would I want in my squad? Easy - Drogba.

Also, this situation isn't like comparing RvP to Eduardo, the difference in ability and experience in English football is huge. It'd be more apt to compare RvP with Anelka for example, at which point I'd rather have the Frenchman (back!).

Each to their own but I would swing the other way of having pure class for half the games than average for all of them. You have a squad to help to cope but for the big games I would be wanting the best which is what King can offer.

And Drogba is better than Torres. But thats a whole seperate arguement

Greenlizard0 said:
Arsenal could never credibly state an intention to go for as many trophies as possible, by having a first choice CB partnership of King and Woodgate. Look over the last 3 years (after Woodgate arrived at Spurs). Should we require them to do so, I want those two players to approach the 60 game mark if possible. King has played 60 games in 3 years, Woodgate just 64 over the same time period. This is why I want Gallas (114) and Vermaelen (108) over the two Englishmen.

You have a squad to cover for injuries. You can go for honours and have injury prone players in your squad. This season is the perfect example with an injury prone King but he came through in the big games when he played and they broke into the top four.

Anyway this whole arguement has gone off the rails, you are basing your arguements on squad viability im basing mine off individual talent and we are coming into some horrible pointless arguement in the middle so lets just leave it at agreeing to disagree

Greenlizard0 · 16 May 2010 at 22:54

No1newts said:
Anyway this whole arguement has gone off the rails, you are basing your arguements on squad viability im basing mine off individual talent and we are coming into some horrible pointless arguement in the middle so lets just leave it at agreeing to disagree

I had noticed.

chimaera · 17 May 2010 at 13:45

No1newts said:
I am not arguing the point of their fitness. I am saying that a fit woodgate or a fit king is better than either of the Arsenal pairing.

Actually i don't think you can prove that or even state it's a hypothesis.

How many games have they played as a pair?

This season appearances - Woodgate 3, King 21
Last season - Woodgate 44, King 29
2008 - Woodgate signed

So you're basing that opinion on *at most* 32 games, which is half a season, in reality they won't have been fit at the same time, so i'd probably knock at least 10 games off that total, which makes it around 20 games.

There is no way that you can assess a defensive pairing over that little time, even more so if you're saying that they are potentially the best defensive pair in the PL/World.

In addition, how many games would they have played against top quality opposition? they've not been in the CL so you can rule out anyone but Man U, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool in terms of top European quality teams, and out of those 20 how many were against those 4 teams? i'd say no more than 5 and that's being optimistic.

Anyway, i'd really be interested to see the proper stats, it could even be a lot worse than i've made out as those appearances include friendlies and the league cup.

guyfawkes5 · 17 May 2010 at 14:40

chimaera said:
In addition, how many games would they have played against top quality opposition? they've not been in the CL so you can rule out anyone but Man U, Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool in terms of top European quality teams, and out of those 20 how many were against those 4 teams? i'd say no more than 5 and that's being optimistic.

I'd hardly count Standard Liége as 'top quality' opposition mate.

Tunney · 17 May 2010 at 17:37

K1LLSW1TCH said:
for the Spuds who have just played arguably their best league season in history?

You must be a troll because no-one with half a brain cell would argue that this is Spurs' best league performance ever. :rolleyes:

K1LLSW1TCH · 17 May 2010 at 18:02

Tunney said:
You must be a troll because no-one with half a brain cell would argue that this is Spurs' best league performance ever.

Several pundits mentioned Spurs "excellent" defense this season. If you know better than people who have played at the highest level and get paid to week in week out commentate on games then good for you. The fact is people were saying no less than 5 or 6 weeks ago that Spurs defense was one of, if not the best in the league and the end result is this: Arsenal conceded the same amount of goals as a team who was lauded as having the best defense.

Also, your views hold no credibility in my opinion after the way you barged into the thread on page 7 with a "ZOMG VERMAELEN IS SO OVERRATED!!!!111one" because he played badly in 4 games, 2 of which were against the current Champions League and Spanish League title holders.

Oh and as I just decided to read through the last few posts I made then why don't you point out where I said this is Spuds best season? I actually said they are "supposedly" in possession of the best defence.

Tunney · 17 May 2010 at 19:07

K1LLSW1TCH said:
Several pundits mentioned Spurs "excellent" defense this season.

Which ones? Got a link? Were they talking about individual games or the whole season?

K1LLSW1TCH · 17 May 2010 at 20:14

Tunney said:
Which ones? Got a link? Were they talking about individual games or the whole season?

How can you link to what is said on Sky Sports? :confused:

I don't need a link to back up that, you can find it anywhere if you just look yourself. For example the last page of this thread has a rabid Spuds fan saying that King and Woodgate are the best defenders in the world when fit... totally laughable.

Care to ignore all of my other points I see. Have your rolleyes back too, and then when you contribute something decent to ANY of the football threads maybe you can speak up but until then just go away please.

:rolleyes:

Tunney · 17 May 2010 at 22:34

How can you link to what is said on Sky Sports?

So, who was it then? Jamie Redknapp? Paul Merson? Or an former manager who actually knows his stuff? Were they talking about individual games or the entire season?

K1LLSW1TCH said:
For example the last page of this thread has a rabid Spuds fan saying that King and Woodgate are the best defenders in the world when fit... totally laughable.

There's a big difference between saying that Spurs have the best central defence pairing in the league when they're fit and saying that Spurs had the best defence this season. Woodgate played three games and King could only play one game a week for most of the season.

Care to ignore all of my other points I see. Have your rolleyes back too, and then when you contribute something decent to ANY of the football threads maybe you can speak up but until then just go away please.

You sound like Jack Warner.

Anyway, I'll let you get back to discussing Arsene Wenger now.

Yas786 · 17 May 2010 at 22:36

Tunney said:
Anyway, I'll let you get back to discussing Arsene Wenger now.

Thanks and bye

.

K1LLSW1TCH · 17 May 2010 at 22:39

EDIT: Don't think I'll waste any more time on Tunney, may as well just let the thread be used for what it was meant instead of bickering.

explicit4u · 18 May 2010 at 17:43

after this video i'm surprised we don't win anything. All we really need is some decent re-enforcements when our main players get injured (which ALWAYS seems to happen when we seem to be hitting our stride), and the league and who knows, maybe even the ECL will be ours.

HangTime · 19 May 2010 at 00:08

bloodline76 said:
Well Gallas hasnt managed that very well this year.

He started 26 league league games this season, which is more APPEARANCES than King AND Woodgate, in all competitions, COMBINED! :eek:

Grumps82 · 19 May 2010 at 13:08

We should have won the league this season. It was our best chance. The fact that Wenger did not strengthen and the amount of injuries we had just killed it for us.

Next year is going to be tough, what with City, Spurs & Chelsea likely to spend a few £££'s I think we'll struggle, I bloody hope not though.