Is Lewis Hamilton the GOAT (this thread is about Lewis as an F1 driver, not anything else)?

[Deleted member 651465]

As I have said previously the GOAT of Motorsport is clearly John Surtees, his record will never be beaten, as he is the only one ever to be world champion in two different forms of Motorsport.

I see this differently and will use a football analogy.

Back in the day* it was not uncommon for a team to field a player who had a side job as a plumber/carpenter etc. Today, all professional players are exactly that; professional and their sole purpose is to train and live to play the game.

That's reflected in the increase in skill level that you see in football. Take a top footballer from 2022 and put them back on a pitch in the 70s and he'd be a world beater.

This is not to take away the skill or Surtees but the level and specialism that exists of todays drivers / moto gp drivers makes it virtually impossible for one of them to jump from one category to another.

To suggest that someone can only be a GOAT because they've not set a record that will never be broken is taking the title too literal.

 

[touch]

To me, to become the GOAT by any meanigful metric, a driver must hold a record that can never ever beaten, evee again, thus making them the Greatest Of ALL TIME.

That's a strange metric.

Here's a couple of other contenders for your GOAT award:
David Walker - only driver to ever score zero points in a season when their team mate won the championship. Very unlikely to ever be beaten with the number of races in the calendar these days.
Al Pease - only driver ever disqualified for driving too slow.
Hans Heyer - only driver ever to be credited with a DNQ, DNF and DSQ at the same race. Won't ever be beaten.

 

[Entai]

@Entai youbhsbe a very strange idea of what GOAT means, and I’ll leave it at that…

Perhaps we need a poll to change the thread title to include F1?

How is it strange

Clue is in the description itself

GOAT
Greatest Of ALL TIME.



As found in a simple google search.

"The label is reserved for players who are regarded as the best in their sports or for their teams. To qualify for the title a player must be regarded as not only the best player of their era but of every era before and after them."

 

[Mesai]

"The label is reserved for players who are regarded as the best in their sports or for their teams. To qualify for the title a player must be regarded as not only the best player of their era but of every era before and after them."

It's incredibly difficult to qualify this statement in something like F1 where the car is a major factor.

Is Lewis one of the best drivers ever, I'd say so, but if you'd put Verstappen, Alonso, Leclerc, etc. in the same title winning car, they'd probably do just as well.

 

[Hawk Tuah]

Is Lewis one of the best drivers ever, I'd say so, but if you'd put Verstappen, Alonso, Leclerc, etc. in the same title winning car, they'd probably do just as well.

No doubt. But, part of being a great driver, is making the right decisions off the track. For that, Lewis has been masterful.

 

[Lopéz]

How is it strange

Clue is in the description itself

GOAT
Greatest Of ALL TIME.



As found in a simple google search.

"The label is reserved for players who are regarded as the best in their sports or for their teams. To qualify for the title a player must be regarded as not only the best player of their era but of every era before and after them."

Flipping heck, is this how you are in all conversations?

By your definition, nobody could ever be the greatest of all time at much, because time is infinite the best of our knowledge and there will pretty much always be a tomorrow. So you have to assume that we are talking about "right now this minute, based on things that have actually already occurred" unless we're talking about a defunct discipline.

You can't really GOAT into an impossible to predict and never ending future

Ronaldo or Messi could both arguably be considered the GOAT of football - and so could people like Pele, but in the next 10 years someone else could come along and claim that.

 

[Irish_Tom]

GOAT doesn't include the future — it's past and present.

Otherwise, no one could be ever be considered the GOAT because we simply can't know what will happen in the future.

Schumacher was the GOAT in F1 until Hamilton came along. Now Hamilton has beaten most of Schumacher's records he can be considered the GOAT, with some caveats as I discussed earlier.

In the future, someone might come along and beat Hamilton's records and then they will become the GOAT, but that doesn't negate Hamilton's position right now as the GOAT.

What's more, this doesn't suggest that you have to factor in future events:

As found in a simple google search.

"The label is reserved for players who are regarded as the best in their sports or for their teams. To qualify for the title a player must be regarded as not only the best player of their era but of every era before and after them."

It's saying that if a player in the past is better than all players since their time, they can be considered the GOAT. It doesn't mean that they have to have records that no future player could ever possibly break.

The fact you're the only one ITT taking this position should give you an indication that you're wrong.

*EDIT* What you're essentially arguing is that Usain Bolt can't be considered the greatest 100m runner of all time (despite holding the World and Olympic Records) because someone, some day, might possibly run faster than him. It's ludicrous.

 

[HangTime]

Yes, people who have retired can be judged against people who came after them, so long as that date is only up to the current day.

As for the question, it's a tough one, as mentioned the car plays such a big factor (take someone like Alonso, go back 10 years and even his peers like Hamilton were describing him as the best driver, but he's just not been competitive lately), it's also hard to judge between different eras, especially if you weren't old enough to be around then. Put a modern driver in a very old car without modern aids, safety equipment etc, who knows? Equally put a legend from 60 years ago in a modern car and they might struggle.

So I guess all I can do is think about the years I've been around to follow things, let's say since late 80s. There's 3 contenders for me; Hamilton and Schumacher is kind of obvious, just based on stats for number of wins. I guess maybe you give it to Hamilton over Schuey, there's not much the latter did that Hamilton hasn't matched or bettered. Wins as percentage of starts there are some legends like Fangio in contention but like I said I can't really consider them, as before my time. The other one to throw in the mix is Senna, taken too soon, competitive at times even in weaker cars, legendary driver in the wet, zen state driving at Monaco, like a (much more serious) version of playing driving games where you aren't even consciously thinking about the road ahead, about how many laps are left, you are just executing. For sure it would be great to (fantasy land) put Schumacher, Senna, Hamilton all in the same car, or maybe even the same 3 cars (to avoid it benefiting one driver more than other in terms of driving style), and see them compete with level conditions. My gut feeling is Schumacher never quite got the credit he deserved, due to having the dominant car, most people probably expect him to get beaten by Senna and Hamilton based on skill, but he was a crafty operator. Even at Benneton when Williams were more dominant, he was a threat.

 

[iamtheoneneo]

In the hybrid era? Sure of course.
Of all time? Not even close to the impact Schumacher had on the sport. He's trying but got to do more than pushing some paper around off the track.

 

[JBeck]

How is it strange

As found in a simple google search.

"The label is reserved for players who are regarded as the best in their sports or for their teams. To qualify for the title a player must be regarded as not only the best player of their era but of every era before and after them."

Comparing anything or anyone from different Era's is fundamentally flawed, but it is down to the individual from any given era to evaluate themselves.

My era (as I see it) of F1 would cover Schumacher, Hamilton, Alonso etc, I have no real insight into Surtees, Moss, Clark or anyone else from 'back then', so they or anyone else from that 'era' would not be in my consideration who the GOAT is.

I can only go on what I know and more importantly when I experienced it for myself when it was happening, this should be the basis for assessing a GOAT, IMO, but of course we all view things differently.

 

[Bald-Eagle22]

I think people are slowly starting to realise what I’ve been saying on here for year ? GOAT - no where near it , maybe on a par with Seb at the very best but both won titles in cars that totally dominated there era.

Point in fact . His team mate now consistently beating him in qualifying and on race day. I said it for the last three years and even confirmed it when George sat in for Lewis at Sakhir in 2020. He would have beaten Bottas hands down and won that GP had it not been for the tyre issues, something I’m still calling out as BS as could you imagine what the F1 community would have thought of Leiws and Mercedes if he had ? I’m sorry the worlds best F1 teams doesn’t make mistakes like this with tyre changes.

It’s the car why he’s doing so badly! So everyone who thinks he’s the goat now blames current performance on the car but when he was consistently winning it was his skill that was winning races - really ? Typical blind Hamilton fans wanting it both ways .

ITS THE CAR - So again I’ll reiterate what I’ve said , no question about it from 2014 to 2020 it’s was the car. This `Mercedes was nigh on 1 second a lap quicker than anything else on track for all those year barring a half a season where the red car almost got its act together. In addition to the fact that it’s clear to see Bottas was nothing but a Stool Pigeon to Lewis .

GOAT - Never and in fact I’ll say Mercedes took the total pee out of F1 fans for employing Bottas and gifting Leiws 4XWC in a car that totally dominated F1 . I’ll even go further with calling Lewis a fraud .

The real Goat has to be Fangio , 47% of races entered he won and 5 of his WC we’re with 4 different teams ? To be fair though can you have a goat in a sport that relies mainly on a mechanical item to compete? Tennis , Boxing, Cricket and the like then yes.

 

[Stumble Bum]

Lewis was pretty poor last season, (made many mistakes). This year Ham and Russell look about on par with each other. I guess it's not so easy to stand out when you don't have the best car & poor teammates around you. It will be interesting to see if it stays this close between Russell and Hamilton all season, if it does I wonder what excuses will be made for him?

 

[JBeck]

I think people are slowly starting to realise what I’ve been saying on here for year ? GOAT - no where near it , maybe on a par with Seb at the very best but both won titles in cars that totally dominated there era.

Point in fact . His team mate now consistently beating him in qualifying and on race day. I said it for the last three years and even confirmed it when George sat in for Lewis at Sakhir in 2020. He would have beaten Bottas hands down and won that GP had it not been for the tyre issues, something I’m still calling out as BS as could you imagine what the F1 community would have thought of Leiws and Mercedes if he had ? I’m sorry the worlds best F1 teams doesn’t make mistakes like this with tyre changes.

It’s the car why he’s doing so badly! So everyone who thinks he’s the goat now blames current performance on the car but when he was consistently winning it was his skill that was winning races - really ? Typical blind Hamilton fans wanting it both ways .

ITS THE CAR - So again I’ll reiterate what I’ve said , no question about it from 2014 to 2020 it’s was the car. This `Mercedes was nigh on 1 second a lap quicker than anything else on track for all those year barring a half a season where the red car almost got its act together. In addition to the fact that it’s clear to see Bottas was nothing but a Stool Pigeon to Lewis .

You coveniently don't mention Lewis's performance in other cars or series.

 

[CaptainRAVE]

You coveniently don't mention Lewis's performance in other cars or series.

and that he has won in every previous season in some below par cars. Haters will hate though. Since Covid Hamilton has been far below his best self, but having emerged from it myself and I can relate. As with every sport I avoid goat discussions, their pointless.

 

[Bald-Eagle22]

You coveniently don't mention Lewis's performance in other cars or series.

Other than I said he was at best on par with Seb Wich included One F1 WC with McLaren ? We’re talking F1 GOAT here not other series , it says it in the title thread.

 

[Rroff]

Point in fact . His team mate now consistently beating him in qualifying and on race day. I said it for the last three years and even confirmed it when George sat in for Lewis at Sakhir in 2020. He would have beaten Bottas hands down and won that GP had it not been for the tyre issues, something I’m still calling out as BS as could you imagine what the F1 community would have thought of Leiws and Mercedes if he had ? I’m sorry the worlds best F1 teams doesn’t make mistakes like this with tyre changes.

After being at the top as long as he has been he probably isn't as driven to win as before, in many sports athletes/players burn out or retire at the point Hamilton is at, which also happened to several of the F1 greats before him.

I don't like Hamilton but your post doesn't read as being particularly being fair to him either.

 

[CaptainRAVE]

After being at the top as long as he has been he probably isn't as driven to win as before, in many sports athletes/players burn out or retire at the point Hamilton is at, which also happened to several of the F1 greats before him.

I don't like Hamilton but your post doesn't read as being particularly being fair to him either.

The same happened to Schumacher. He returned to the sport and was a shell of his former self. Ultimately Hamilton is still driving a car we can all dream of driving and for money most of us will never see. He’s still dragging that car up the order. Of course the haters will always say ‘see, I told you’. Regardless, he’ll still be considered one of the greats and the stat that matters puts him level with an equal great.

 

[Bald-Eagle22]

After being at the top as long as he has been he probably isn't as driven to win as before, in many sports athletes/players burn out or retire at the point Hamilton is at, which also happened to several of the F1 greats before him.

I don't like Hamilton but your post doesn't read as being particularly being fair to him either.

I can’t disagree , you can see from his body language that he’s just seems to have lost his mojo , maybe Abu Dhabi effected him more than we realise ?

Unfair on him or not I can’t see him winning a single race this season on performance ( car or talent ) let alone another WC title. But either way I stand by what I’ve said that Mercedes sold F1 down the river employing Bottas and gifting Hamilton 4x WC titles .

 

[CaptainRAVE]

I can’t disagree , you can see from his body language that he’s just seems to have lost his mojo , maybe Abu Dhabi effected him more than we realise ?

Unfair on him or not I can’t see him winning a single race this season on performance ( car or talent ) let alone another WC title. But either way I stand by what I’ve said that Mercedes sold F1 down the river employing Bottas and gifting Hamilton 4x WC titles .

I think Covid affected him more than Abu Dhabi. We saw mistakes from him that we’d rarely seen across his entire career.

As for bottas, well Ferrari did the same for Schumacher. It’s the sport.

 

[Jono8]

I think people are slowly starting to realise what I’ve been saying on here for year ? GOAT - no where near it , maybe on a par with Seb at the very best but both won titles in cars that totally dominated there era.

Point in fact . His team mate now consistently beating him in qualifying and on race day. I said it for the last three years and even confirmed it when George sat in for Lewis at Sakhir in 2020. He would have beaten Bottas hands down and won that GP had it not been for the tyre issues, something I’m still calling out as BS as could you imagine what the F1 community would have thought of Leiws and Mercedes if he had ? I’m sorry the worlds best F1 teams doesn’t make mistakes like this with tyre changes.

It’s the car why he’s doing so badly! So everyone who thinks he’s the goat now blames current performance on the car but when he was consistently winning it was his skill that was winning races - really ? Typical blind Hamilton fans wanting it both ways .

ITS THE CAR - So again I’ll reiterate what I’ve said , no question about it from 2014 to 2020 it’s was the car. This `Mercedes was nigh on 1 second a lap quicker than anything else on track for all those year barring a half a season where the red car almost got its act together. In addition to the fact that it’s clear to see Bottas was nothing but a Stool Pigeon to Lewis .

GOAT - Never and in fact I’ll say Mercedes took the total pee out of F1 fans for employing Bottas and gifting Leiws 4XWC in a car that totally dominated F1 . I’ll even go further with calling Lewis a fraud .

The real Goat has to be Fangio , 47% of races entered he won and 5 of his WC we’re with 4 different teams ? To be fair though can you have a goat in a sport that relies mainly on a mechanical item to compete? Tennis , Boxing, Cricket and the like then yes.

This is all mostly Horse ****.

"His team mate now consistently beating him in qualifying and on race day"

^ Absolute rubbish

For a start, it is 2 for 2 in qualy and one was due to them trying a radical setup on Lewis's car. Also Russell is only 2 for 1 in the races due to Lewis' bad luck in Australia with the safety car.