Israel/Palestine Shenanigans

[RDM]

Yes they didn't. What the point here?

You asked me a question and I answered it?

Yes, like I said before. They do not want to be deemed the 'bad guys.' Hitler did the holocaust, what happened there?

This is why I really cannot be bothered with Israel/Palestine threads anymore. You are making contrary statements in every other post because you aren't really thinking rationally about the situation.

More Palestinians have died then israelis. How is the population increasing and where is this statement from?

If your definition of genocide is that more of one side dies than the other then every armed conflict in the world ever is genocide.

The population figures are fairly easy to find, try Wikipedia for a start.

Palestinian Population in 1970 1.03m people.
Palestinian Population in 2013 4.42m people.

As far as genocide goes quadrupling the population is pretty poor.

 

[Vita]

I admit that the Israel policy of land grabbing and usurping Palestinians from their homes is wrong.

Thank you

Just because I support Israel doesn't mean I'm a crackpot fundamentalist. However, when I look at Palestine and what they do to Israel, I feel they are worse.

If someone kicked you out of your home, would you not retaliate? If someone punched you, would you not punch back? If someone bombed you, would you not bomb back? The people have palestine have been mocked, killed etc.. They probably feel like they have nothing to live for. If you kill their innocents, they will surely return that.

Personally, I'd like a two state solution where both sides can live in peace and govern themselves. I always supported the right of the people of Northern Ireland to live in peace under British rule. It took decades of violence to sort that out and even now it's still simmering under the surface. However I always viewed the IRA as the terrorists. Same thing in the Israel/Palestine conflict in my opinion, Hamas are terrorists.

At the end of the day, what Israel needs to do is give the land back. I've said this before and will keep saying it. Once a group of people stand up and retaliate they are called Terrorists. Is Israel not a terrorist? Why kill the innocent? Why take their land? Why force them to live in an open air prison? Why not stop and gain some human compassion.

You could have all the weapons and nukes in the world. All it takes is mother-nature to wipe it out. They need to fear repercussions as when the world does wake up, it won't be pleasant.

 

[Vita]

You asked me a question and I answered it?



This is why I really cannot be bothered with Israel/Palestine threads anymore. You are making contrary statements in every other post because you aren't really thinking rationally about the situation.



If your definition of genocide is that more of one side dies than the other then every armed conflict in the world ever is genocide.

The population figures are fairly easy to find, try Wikipedia for a start.

Palestinian Population in 1970 1.03m people.
Palestinian Population in 2013 4.42m people.

As far as genocide goes quadrupling the population is pretty poor.

Wikipedia, ah yes the true source of information. Go count every palestinian person and tell me if there is more now then in 2013.

I am thinking rationality. Do you know the meaning of Genocide? I'll help you, let's use google as an example.

Define: Genocide - the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation.

Ok, so Palestine is a nation which has a large group of people. They are an ethnic group. Oh look they're being killed in large numbers.

The reason I bought the hitler example up is because he killed large numbers of jews. How more rationality can it get? It's a fact!

 

[Allnamestaken]

The Kingdom of Israel lasted for less than a century and both their predecessors and successors were largely client kingdoms of the Babylonians, Egyptians, Persians and Assyrians. The Kingdom of Israel was a very short-lived State.

Do you really accept that because a biblical account says that there was a Israelite kingdom 3000 years ago that is justification for displacing an entire population who have been there for the last thousand years or more..not to mention the small issue that Palestine pre-dates the Israelites by some 2000 years or more, and also that European Jews have no more claim on the land than the Arab Palestinians, less in fact as the Palestinians were living there before the huge influx of European Jews after WWII. The Levant to which modern Israel was part was hardly a bunch of goat herding nomads either...it was part of one of the most civilised and culturally advanced empires of its time...it formed part of the Ottoman Empire, it formed part of the Kingdom of Jerusalem, it formed part of the Great Seljuk Empire, it formed part of the Great Macedonian Empire, before the Kingdom of Israel, it was the great City States of Phoenicia and so on..historically its people have been anything but goat herding nomads.

So if you really want to talk about who has the historical claim, then you really need to do your homework.

I feel like quoting this again for you guys who missed it :\.

 

[bitslice]

wow allnamestaken, thanks for your RSS input Gotta love the +1 posse...

Do you really accept that because a biblical account says that there was a Israelite kingdom 3000 years ago that is justification for displacing an entire population who have been there for the last thousand years or more

I wasn't arguing for a Jewish legal claim to a territory, but simply a historical connection.

The mandate wasn't intended to displace Palestinians (despite what was requested) but to create a autonomous Palestinian state

If the arabs hadn't rejected this outright then it wouldn't have forced the jews into the position where expulsion of the Palestinians was the only option. The middle east is vast, had they wanted to they could have easily incorporated a million Palestinians into their own lands.


Jews have been kicked out of every country in Europe for centuries, this situation was clearly causing repeated tensions and a solution was needed, what would you have done with them all?

 

[RDM]

Wikipedia, ah yes the true source of information. Go count every palestinian person and tell me if there is more now then in 2013.

If you have more up to date figures or more accurate than please do share.

Would the CIA World Factbook help? It puts the population of Palestine at:

2.7m for the West Bank
1.8m for the Gaza Strip

Both July 2014 estimates.

For a total of 4.5m people. Which is slightly more than the 2013 figures. Not surprising as the population growth rates are 1.9% in the West Bank and 2.9% in Gaza.

 

[Vita]

If you have more up to date figures or more accurate than please do share.

Would the CIA World Factbook help? It puts the population of Palestine at:

2.7m for the West Bank
1.8m for the Gaza Strip

Both July 2014 estimates.

For a total of 4.5m people. Which is slightly more than the 2013 figures. Not surprising as the population growth rates are 1.9% in the West Bank and 2.9% in Gaza.

Estimated Figure for Gaza Strip.

Take the following away

approximately 341,400 Israeli settlers live in the West Bank (2012); approximately 196,400 Israeli settlers live in East Jerusalem (2011) (July 2014 est.) Again estimated.

Face it, more palestinians are being killed then Israelis. The population is decreasing.

 

[Castiel]

It is a pretty rubbish genocide considering the Palestinian population is increasing rather then decreasing.

Given that to qualify as Genocide it doesn't necessarily have to be about killing them all the point that the Palestinian Population may be increasing overall is pretty immaterial.

And what is it out of interest? just under 2% growth rate overall? which is on par with Israel proper I would imagine, but the Israeli figures include The West Bank occupied territory as well so it is difficult to wrest any meaning from such statistics, what we do know is that Gaza has higher infant mortality rates, lower life expectancy and it is interesting to see that over 44% of the Gazan population is under 14, far exceeding that of both The West Bank and Israel. It is also interesting that in The West Bank the Jewish fertility rate is almost twice that of the Palestinian fertility rate.

Although none of this is really proof of anything or indicative of anything...I don't think that the Gazan Blockage and bombings really qualify as Genocide, however two of the conditions for Genocide are pretty close to what is, or would be happening, if the blockade was totally successful, which clearly it isn't. (Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part)...

Whatever you view on the rights and wrongs being done by both sides, we have a stalemate, we have on one side a people who are literally imprisoned in their city, cut off from pretty much everything and everyone...and on the other you have a government which has to protect its people from terrorism, partially created by the very action of blockading Gaza and settling on the West Bank. Neither will back down, neither will accept a settlement as each want what the other cannot give...and in some ways this is what the Zionist want, the other Arab nations want and The West wants...the real victims here are the ordinary Gazan People and the Israelis who live within rocket fire, given the level of risk however I would, if a value could or should be placed on this say the Gazans are the overall victims as they are victims of both the politics and the economics of the region.

It is time, in fact the time has long since past that Israel uses its wealth and power to give the ordinary Gazan people their self respect and freedom back, only then will they undermine Hamas and remove Hamas from power in Gaza..because until that happens the only people feeding the ordinary Gazan is Hamas, and with that comes power.

 

[RDM]

Estimated Figure for Gaza Strip.

Take the following away

approximately 341,400 Israeli settlers live in the West Bank (2012); approximately 196,400 Israeli settlers live in East Jerusalem (2011) (July 2014 est.) Again estimated.

Face it, more palestinians are being killed then Israelis. The population is decreasing.

So that would be "No, I don't actually have more accurate figures I am just making stuff up as the evidence doesn't fit my view."

Which is why it is pointless getting involved in these sorts of debates. On the plus side you haven't accused me of being Jewish, which is what happened the last time I bothered.

Given that to qualify as Genocide it doesn't necessarily have to be about killing them all the point that the Palestinian Population may be increasing overall is pretty immaterial.

And what is it out of interest? just under 2% growth rate overall? which is on par with Israel proper I would imagine, but the Israeli figures include The West Bank occupied territory as well so it is difficult to wrest any meaning from such statistics, what we do know is that Gaza has higher infant mortality rates, lower life expectancy and it is interesting to see that over 44% of the Gazan population is under 14, far exceeding that of both The West Bank and Israel. It is also interesting that in The West Bank the Jewish fertility rate is almost twice that of the Palestinian fertility rate.

Although none of this is really proof of anything or indicative of anything...I don't think that the Gazan Blockage and bombings really qualify as Genocide, however two of the conditions for Genocide are pretty close to what is, or would be happening, if the blockade was totally successful, which clearly it isn't. (Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part...

Calling it genocide is political. Israel's actions, whilst wrong a lot of the time, are not genocide. Yes genocide doesn't necessarily have to mean killing all of a particular group but it is really unsuccessful if the group you are trying to commit genocide on has quadrupled during the time you are meant to be dong it.

To put it into perspective Assad has killed more of his own people in the last year than Israel has killed in the last 60.

Calling it genocide is purely a political move.

Whatever you view on the rights and wrongs being done by both sides, we have a stalemate, we have on one side a people who are literally imprisoned in their city, cut off from pretty much everything and everyone...and on the other you have a government which has to protect its people from terrorism, partially created by the very action of blockading Gaza and settling on the West Bank. Neither will back down, neither will accept a settlement as each want what the other cannot give...and in some ways this is what the Zionist want, the other Arab nations want and The West wants...the real victims here are the ordinary Gazan People and the Israelis who live within rock fire, given the level of risk however I would, if a value could or should be placed on this say the Gazans are the overall victims as they are victims of both the politics and the economics of the region.

It is time, in fact the time has long since past that Israel uses its wealth and power to give the ordinary Gazan people their self respect and freedom back, only then will they undermine Hamas and remove Hamas from power in Gaza..because until that happens the only people feeding the ordinary Gazan is Hamas, and with that comes power.

Without a doubt, yet I don't see either side changing any time soon. For Hamas the more of their own people dead the better.

 

[Castiel]

I wasn't arguing for a Jewish legal claim to a territory, but simply a historical connection.

They all have a historical connection...but the value of such is pretty meaningless, the average European Jew in Israel since 1948 however has a more tenuous connection to the land itself that the Arab families that have been there for generations.

Jews have been kicked out of every country in Europe for centuries, this situation was clearly causing repeated tensions and a solution was needed, what would you have done with them all?

No one had to do anything with them all...just stop kicking them out is all. In fact the majority of Jewish Immigrants into Israel since 1948 have been voluntary, they haven't been kicked out of anywhere. Supplanting one population with another is hardly a solution.

 

[leaskovski]

Yet, let's all argue over the technicalities. Like that's going to make any difference. At the end of the day, nothing is going to change. Those two are always going to bomb the pap out of each other because that's all they know. And you know what... If they are that retarded to not realise that they can just stop and make the other side look like animals, then guess what, leave them to it.

 

[Castiel]

Calling it genocide is political. Israel's actions, whilst wrong a lot of the time, are not genocide. Yes genocide doesn't necessarily have to mean killing all of a particular group but it is really unsuccessful if the group you are trying to commit genocide on has quadrupled during the time you are meant to be dong it.

Calling it genocide is just exaggeration, whether it is successful or not, the issues remain that we have a population of people who are to all intents and purposes imprisoned and under effective siege. I think it is obvious that the Likud leadership in Israel would like nothing more than removing all Arabs from Israel if it could, but ultimately something has to be done before some bright spark decides that public opinion might just let them actually attempt Genocide for real.

To put it into perspective Assad has killed more of his own people in the last year than Israel has killed in the last 60.

That is a civil war however and we simply do not kn ow how many Palestinian civilians have been killed in the last 60 odd years as the figures are mostly unknown for most of the conflicts and neither do we know how many deaths can be attributed to the effects of the blockade and so on...what we do know is that what is happening to the ordinary Palestinian is wrong..whether there are Terrorists within that population or not.

Without a doubt, yet I don't see either side changing any time soon. For Hamas the more of their own people dead the better.

For the Zionists I would suspect that they would be quite content to let that continue. Having visited Israel quite a few times it a county of two halves...on one side you have the cultured, peaceful Israeli who do not see the Arabs as different to them, on the other you have the Zionist minority who see Arabs as a stain on their countries purity and a threat to the Jewish State..most Arabs, including Palestinians just want to live in peace..but as long as the extremists remain in power, on both sides, then the ordinary Palestinian and the ordinary Israel is politically and vocally in the minority. There are a lot of local issues revolving around the immigrant settlers, even amongst the Israelis, who simply see them as racists who are stoking the unrest and creating a situation which will eventually turn into a bloodbath.

 

[Werewolf]

If the arabs hadn't rejected this outright then it wouldn't have forced the jews into the position where expulsion of the Palestinians was the only option. The middle east is vast, had they wanted to they could have easily incorporated a million Palestinians into their own lands.

From memory the Palestinians (or at least a fairly large number of well organised ones), once inside Egypt attempted or were found out just before they attempted a coup back in the 60's.

Which is part of the reason the other Arab states won't have them inside their borders (or didn't at first), and part of the reason for the whole mess, as after that IIRC the various neighbouring states were very reluctant to take on any number of the Palestinians, and very happy to use them to keep their own populations under control, and as a threat against Israel.

The whole area is a basket case, with political factions being quite willing to kill the enemy, their allies, and their own people to keep their own power bases.

It's almost like NI, but with about a dozen different major political, ethnic, and religious groups rather than the primarily three or four we had in NI, and with an ongoing low level civil war in one of the major areas making any form of peace process impossible (as the government can't stop it's own partners from breaking it, let alone the people who aren't in government).

 

[Allnamestaken]

Yet, let's all argue over the technicalities. Like that's going to make any difference. At the end of the day, nothing is going to change. Those two are always going to bomb the pap out of each other because that's all they know. And you know what... If they are that retarded to not realise that they can just stop and make the other side look like animals, then guess what, leave them to it.

So you are happy to stand by as innocent children are murdered without uttering a word about it? okay

 

[chief barker]

So what are you going to do about it?

 

[RDM]

From memory the Palestinians (or at least a fairly large number of well organised ones), once inside Egypt attempted or were found out just before they attempted a coup back in the 60's.

Black September in Jordan in 1970/71.

So you are happy to stand by as innocent children are murdered without uttering a word about it? okay

What do you suggest we do when the leaders of both the nations involved see it as politically the best option to keep the conflict going?

 

[Vita]

What do you suggest we do when the leaders of both the nations involved see it as politically the best option to keep the conflict going?

Open your eyes and see what's actually going on using your rational way of thinking? Finally getting somewhere.

 

[Sho]

This literally made me projectile vomit. What a facile and vapid post.

Go on, please elaborate....

 

[B&W]

Go on, please elaborate....

You labeled all Jews that's wrong, look what that idiot bitnob says about Muslims you just did the same.

 

[bitslice]

You labeled all Jews that's wrong, look what that idiot bitnob says about Muslims you just did the same.

idiot and a bit nob?

Exceeding clever wordplay there, you took the slice out and replaced it with nob, so it sounds like knob. Stephen Fry, I think you face some stiff competition from this fine young wordsmith

Thank goodness our heroic mods will now swoop in and edit out such abuse, hurrah for transparency and fairness, I hope they are not too tired from all this work you are creating for them.

Yet no, I can see from your profile that not a single mod has bothered to check you out, how can this be? Are they too busy looking at my account as per usual? Is not OcUK a bastion of family friendliness where the merest mention of 'icky poopysnickle' will have ones account flung out on a whim?

I am astonished, nay goobersmaked!


Actually I'm not because this kind of predictable **** is exactly the same whenever these posters are in a thread.
Mods might as well not exist.



So you actually believe I made some reference to muslims and Hitler not killing them all...?

Really?


x 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000



I bet AK22 comes along in a minute to say "+1"
as that's all he appears to do?